As title suggests,why we dont have convoke in the class tree like paladins have divine toll? Whats the purpose of having it in every spec tree for all 4 specs ? Also why is it a choice with incarn?
Blizzard please address the issue, i know you can. Every day that goes by ,my hopium runs out . I dont wanna be filled with copium once prepatch releases, i just want to have a good rework of druid so i can happily venture forth in TWW
You would think the most fun spell that can be used on every single druid spec would be in the class tree.
For Convoke the Spirits in particular, I do question why it isnât in the class tree. But thatâs because it carries a similar power level across most specs and thus would make sense to put it into the class tree.
More generally though, a talent being accessible to all specs alone does not make it a good candidate to put into the class tree. For example, players have asked Blizzard why Adaptive Swarm isnât in the class tree. However, unlike Convoke, this becomes much harder to place in a relatively balanced spot in the class tree because of how differently it performs for each spec. If Blizzard put it into the class tree, it would be overvalued for its position for some specs and/or undervalued for others due to its relative priority for each spec. Resto druid in keys absolutely wants Adaptive Swarm every day of the week while a raiding guardian druid wouldnât even put it on their bar if it was baseline.
Itâs a choice with incarn because it creates a decision between flexible burst and specialized sustain for all specs. Itâs actually a pretty good design decision if Blizzard feels specs would be overpowered if they could have both. Iâm not thrilled with this for all specs, but I can at least understand the logic.
Throughput like that forces you to run it in all scenarios, and I donât want to be playing Convoke permanently.
Personally I tihnk Convoke and Incarnation/berserk should be a choise node in the class treeâŚfolloed by a talent or 2 that uppgrades it in some way.
That would open up for more options in the spec treesâŚIF only we had devs with the competence/creativity to actually make anything out of it.
The sure sign that the devs dessiganted to druid are completely clueless is that so many abilities that common sence would place as baseline are instead spread out over the class treeâŚand some in the spec trees.
Before any talen points are distributed catform should have baseline at least a builder and a finisherâŚbut noâŚdevs didnt mamange that.
Bearform should have a rage builder and spenderâŚbut nopeâŚ
Did they manage to give moonkin form baselie builder+spenderâŚnopeâŚ
They didnt mange to think about âbaselineâ.
This again leads to âno room for creativityâ because all the talent spots are taken by abilities that should have been baseline.
Every single druid spec already has a convoke/Incarnation choice node in their spec tree, and with the exception of resto itâs in essentially the same spot & one of the two always taken.
The question of the thread is why isnât convoke in the class tree, but it really should be why the choice node isnât in the class tree. You wouldnât be forced to take convoke, youâd still take Incarnation in instances where you currently pick it over convoke.
It really should be. Paladins are an excellent comparative - like Druids their class tree must provide desirable talents for all three roles in the game. Like druids their different-role specs have shared abilities that work slightly differently depending on spec. Yet Avenging Wrath & Divine Toll are in the paladin class tree, while Incarnation and Convoke take up space in the spec trees.
Even in the new Monk talent trees, their various statues are still in their class tree. Each class only ever wants their own statue, and it would be perfectly reasonable to put them in the spec trees instead, but theyâre in the class tree on a shared node that changes based on spec.
I think ultimately the answer comes down to moving Incarn/Convoke to the class tree means committing to at least minor overhauls of all 4 trees, because there will suddenly be a gaping hole in all of them. And theyâre simply not interested in doing that.
The problem is that there is nothing even remotely close to the kind of throughput we get from Convoke or Incarn in our class tree. If that choice node were in the class tree, it would be a 100% pick because it would blow everything out of the water. Now if it was put in a central spot that currently has some fluff utility that we all take, maybe that wouldnât matter in a practical sense. But design wise itâs a pretty bad idea to have a node that would be deep into the tree that is far and away the best talent in the entire tree for all situations.
Well youâre already wrong there because you donât always take either as Feral. Plus who knows in TWW if that node potentially ends up skippable as Guardian with Incarn nerfs.
Also the biggest thing youâve seemed to have omitted is that thereâs the AG node below it which adds further choice in the spec tree, now youâre not only locking either Incarn or Convoke, but youâre locking that additional choice as well.
Honestly I wish you people would just give it up with this stupid request, weâve heard it all last xpac and it makes no sense. You move throughput into the spec tree itâs not going to make you any stronger and it doesnât add any real or meaningful choice because those nodes are just hard locked. You absolutely gain nothing from moving them there because guess what, adding free throughput nodes just means those nodes (or other parts of each spec) will be nerfed to accomodate.
Itâs just a complete waste of time and resources for Blizzard. Paladins having a few throughput nodes in their class tree doesnât make them a stronger class nor does it add any meaningful choice. Believe it or not but bottom section of Druid tree actually has better choice than Paladins.
Sure but does it really make a difference if itâs 100% pick in the class tree vs 100% pick in the spec tree? Why is that a problem exactly? The druid tree already has a severe issue of lack of powerful choices and is mostly a grab-bag of utility and minor effects you may or may not make use of.
Looking at the current beta tree, you have to take (nerfed) mass entangle or vortex, AND one of cyclone or soothe to reach stampeding roar. In most raid situations, thatâs 2 dead points just to reach one near-mandatory ability. If that choice node is Incarn/Convoke, suddenly it feels a lot less terrible to be pathing to stampeding roar. And thatâs presuming the only change you make to the class tree is swapping out that node and putting entang/vortex somewhere else.
Fair enough - Ferals will frequently take convoke but always was a mis-statement on my part.
Thatâs not just for ferals, all 4 specs have a modifier node directly below the choice node. All of them do the same thing for convoke and add an additional small benefit to Incarn. Iâm not sure why you think Iâm forgetting it - that can easily remain in the spec tree, or be moved to the class tree with the choice node. Considering itâs not an auto-lock for any of the specs even when the choice node is taken, seems like that choice could benefit from less competition in that area of the tree.
You mis-understand the purpose. Itâs not about putting the choice node in the class tree to have additional throughput, itâs about moving a powerful, desirable ability that everyone uses into the class tree, which aids with talent pathing and choice in both trees. Yes, convoke/incarnation in the class tree would likely be an auto-include for most builds, and thatâs a good thing because it gives you space to put more generally desirable nodes that then arenât locked behind sequences of nodes nobody wants. It also opens up more points in the spec tree which increases flexibility of pathing and allows for introduction of more meaningful choice in builds instead of the point already being committed.
Have you⌠played a paladin? Maybe renewal and innervate compete, but Divine Toll, Dusk & Dawn, and their respective enhancer nodes are all clearly significantly better than the grab-bag of Protector of the Pack (which literally no one takes), Improved stamp roar (situational at best), HotW (niche), natureâs vigil (AG but 1/10th the power), and well-honed instincts (good talent but 2 pointer is rough).
I can understand why - if you only play a druid - the concept of throughput talents in the class tree is strange and unusual. But Druid having no throughput in the class tree beyond some minor passives is the exception in the game, not the standard. Itâs Druid, Evoker, and Shaman without throughput buttons in their class tree. Warlock has only one on a choice node where people usually take the passive choice, but their trees are also busted overall. Blizzard is clearly struggling to give druids desirable nodes in the class tree for pathing purposes, or else the new TWW tree wouldnât include the stampeding roar pathing issues I mentioned earlier, forcing Feral to path through Lore of the Grove for Fluid Form, forcing Balance to path through Instincts of the Claw to reach oakskin/Well-honed, forcing anyone who isnât guardian to path through Ironfur for any number of choices, etc etc. A tree that forces you to spend multiple points and take multiple nodes you have zero interest or use for to reach the valuable ones below it isnât a good tree. One node changing doesnât have to be meaningful choice itself, it can simply re-organize priorities in the tree that opens up pathways and options for more meaningful choice between other nodes.
Yes, it does. Convoke and incarn are not always better than other choices in the spec tree. Like Cheesy said, there are times feral isnât speccing into either currently. There have been times Guardian hasnât taken incarn and they wouldnât have taken Convoke in Shadowlands. Not to mention any tuning that might make it less of a 100% pick rate in its respective spec tree.
Whereas it would be by far the best talent in the class tree for all specs. Druids would have to pay the points to path to it and take both talent points associated with it. And seeing as Iâve had Moonkin form and Sunfire 100% of the time as a feral druid for multiple expansions now because it was a performance boost competing with utility, I donât particularly need yet another instance now that weâre finally not looking to be forced into having the balance package in TWW.
Sure, but in dungeon content or solo stuff/delves, I donât have to take any of those abilities. If you throw Convoke/Incarn in the class tree, it will be mandatory for 100% of content no matter where itâs placed.
And then even when I am taking those talents, there isnât anything else in the tree Iâm not taking that feels exceptionally bad to use. As annoying as having dead talents is, itâs far more palatable when the opportunity cost is a bit of utility as opposed to something thatâs fun or performant. The more mandatory talents that exist, the more talents weâll have to leave at the door due to there not being a choice in taking the overpowered throughput talent.
Itâs not an auto lock in the spec tree because competing points can be better. That wonât happen in the class tree. Every druid will path straight to Convoke/Incarn and take AG due to their relative strength. Then theyâll have whatever is leftover for picking what they actually want to take.
I could not disagree with this more. Having mandatory talent choices anywhere except the first few rows is terrible design that completely negates the benefits of a talent system. This will never be a good thing.
Sure, it feels better to path through a good talent than a bad talent, but whether a talent is good or bad should come down to situation and play style. There shouldnât be a talent thatâs clearly best at all times once patching options have opened up. Having to path through a bad option to get to something good actually creates more flexible design options than having a good pathing option.
The situation isnât so binary of either there is throughput or there isnât. Itâs the strength of the given throughput talent that youâre wanting to move. If Convoke/Incarn is moved to the class tree, what would compete with it to actually make it a choice for players? There is nothing even close to it today, but unless Blizzard makes it a compelling decision, Blizzard is effectively making them baseline and reducing the total points in the class tree.
Thatâs probably because itâs a covenant ability and has many far-reaching impacts beyond just a talent point. Not exactly a valid comparison.
And honestly this entire line of objection just doesnât make sense. In one breath youâre saying you donât want it in the class tree because it becomes mandatory and takes points away from other talents, and in the next youâre complaining about your dead talents in the balance chunk of the tree to reach the Astral Influence / Fluid Form / Rising Nights that you do want. The entire point of the argument Iâm putting towards you is that putting the node in the tree strategically can open up entire new pathing routes that eliminate that as an issue. Sure, it could be added to the tree in such a way that exacerbates the issue - and considering the lasting issue of bad pathing and dead talents in the tree that Blizzard is either unaware of or has no interest in fixing, I wouldnât even be surprised - but the argument youâre making is fallacious. The worst-case scenario of any change is going to be bad, if thatâs a valid argument against it then we canât do anything ever.
You have 31 points to spend and 52 places to spend them.
Thereâs 8 points of things that provide zero benefit to Feral
Thereâs 12 points of situational or incredibly weak talents (ie. Forestwalk).
Thereâs 20 points of âmust haveâ or usually-include talents.
The scarcity of points you keep coming back to doesnât exist because thereâs >31 auto-include, powerful, or compelling choices in the talent tree. It exists because pathing routes are bad, and you end up spending a significant number of points on niche, situational, or otherwise undesirable talents to get to the ones you actually want. My point - again - is to introduce more universally-desirable talents to the tree to enable pathing that doesnât suck. If thatâs done poorly and suddenly you only get one of mighty bash or maim instead of both? Thatâs a trade I take every day of the week.
Guys what are we talking about ? are we talking about the same convoke ability? What meaningful throughput does convoke provide?
For resto its extremely mediocre , and in the cases it gets picked it only provides a damage increase on moonkin form in m+ on very big pulls where you owlweave.Healing wise ( which is the main priority of resto druid obviously) its a very bad healing cooldown,arguably the worst of the lot.
For bear/cat/boomie convoke is also extremely mid at best. its not the old shadowlands convoke , its a nerfed,dumped down version , a very bad deck of spells.
Leaving throughput aside, convoke can be fun to press though , at least because you get resources for your respective spec . It used to be superfun to convoke. It does not make sense as a very important capstone , competing with the major cd of each spec.
I wished it to be in the class tree for 1) enjoyment purposes , so you dont have to never pick it but instead pick it for a mediocre throughput gain but a huge enjoyment gain
2) to free up space on the spec trees and avoid dead choice nodes
3) Because druid atm needs some love , the class tree is horrendus and desperate of rework moving forward , and the spec trees suffer aswell /
If the covenant ability was just a selection of the spell with no further ramifications or costs, guardian druids in a lot of cases would have take ravenous frenzy over convoke. Hell, there are times when guardian druids would have taken kindred spirits over convoke, as well. Really the only ability I think a guardian druid would always have preferred convoke over was adaptive swarm.
What doesnât make sense about it? Both situations are bad. But the points Iâm giving up to take the stupid balance package today are not performance-altering throughput. Theyâre all on similar levels of performance of one another. As soon as you put a massive throughput-altering ability against minor utility and defensives, that becomes a completely mandatory ability reducing choice for the tree. If I desperately needed 2 stacks of Well-Honed Instincts and Protector of the Pack, I could forego Rising Night. But it would be performance suicide to not take Convoke or Incarn.
In practice, perhaps what youâre suggesting would feel better for pathing. But it would be completely antithetical of how a talent system should function. And Iâm not in the business of advocating for bad design to follow up bad design.
To start, this entire response has absolutely nothing to do with the sentence you quoted.
But even beyond that, Itâs not that I worry about how well the design might work, itâs that what youâre suggesting is completely sidestepping how a talent system is supposed to function. There isnât supposed to be a single option presented as a choice that blows everything else out of the water. That stifles any form of flexibility that can exist because every player has to do whatever they can to get to that broken choice first and foremost.
With the current TWW talent trees, looking at feral, there are 8 points that I need to spend to increase my throughput. I have 8 points that I need to spend on pathing to reach those talents; if there didnât exist minimum numbers of talents to unlock the different bands, I would have just over 25% of my points put into pathing. Itâs not nearly as bad with the TWW changes as youâre making it out to be.
So should its damage potential for resto be discounted entirely because itâs a healer? But even as a healing cooldown itâs far better than you are giving it credit, especially with a 1 minute CD. Convoke does a pretty good job of picking healing spells when much of the group is injured.
But honestly the biggest benefit is the flexibility it brings. Even if itâs not the best cooldown for either healing or damage, itâs by far the best cooldown for giving you flexibility to use it however you need in the moment. Every other cooldown choice resto druid has is purely healing with no value when the group doesnât need the healing. Convoke gives you the ability to put out decent damage over a short burst when your healing cooldowns would otherwise sit dormant waiting on the next big spike of incoming damage.
For bear and moonkin, maybe youâre right; I donât play those specs much so canât speak to it. But itâs very good for feral, and has been for a couple seasons now. Similar to its value as resto, Convoke is a good middle-of-the-road option. Oftentimes when a fight is purely ST or AOE, there is a better option than Convoke for the point. But when a fight is a mix of ST and AOE, Convoke can be used effectively in both settings making it a useful selection.
Moving the convoke/incarn choice from spec to class would make the class tree even worse by putting even more pressure on the points non-balance druids have to spend. If you are envisioning a larger rework with this change being one of the changes, then perhaps that would make sense. But as a standalone change this update would make the class tree function even worse than it does today for 3 of 4 specs.
Iâll concur with this.
Especially with our current tier being procâd by Feral Frenzy, and convoke being able to cast Feral Frenzy, it allows for insane burst windows when timed properly
Agree. Convoke should be a choice node with Heart of the Wild, short of HotW getting a major rework to make it useful for all specs.
After thinkign a bit about this statementâŚI completely agree with you, even though druid talent tree is a disaster.
All the bottom talents in pala tree are mandatory, and not choises, since they are throughput ^^
Hi Tunare, how is Norrath faring these days?
Yeah, but wouldnât it be nice to have a capstone talent actually worth picking or that people were excited about? Ideally, we would have 3, but letâs not get carried away now.
If every capstone carries that level of power, at least for one of the specs, then sure. But honestly having a singular must-take capstone is far worse than having Convoke/Incarn replicated across all 4 spec trees. That removes any ability to decide not to take that capstone AND a minimum amount of talents to path to it.
The reason why Dying Night and Astral Influence are so problematic in the DF talent trees is because I have to take 3 useless balance talents for me as either a feral or guardian druid because there is nothing competing with it that might be better. Repeating this, only in a worse way due to Convoke/Incarn being even more powerful, is not something I really want to entertain.
i agree with your logic, if that logic was applied to every spec,
some specs have amazing capstones, be it utility or throughput , ( the most exciting class trees have both and every capstone is accesible and more often than not all 3 together ) .
but druid does NOT have amazing capstones, they literally do NOT bring much besides extra this or that , you can skip them actually and noone will notice their absence.
convoke is a throughput button but it could serve as a capstone to pick , like other classes have .
I really dislike when people say that its problematic to have ex , convoke in the class tree, but they dont see the other class trees , and they dont see the state of the current class tree capstones