Why Classic won't be authentic without Progressive Itemisation

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
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I hear people on these forums constantly say that Blizzard doesn’t have pre-1.12 data and won’t touch the 1.12 data. However, Blizzard didn’t say this. What they said was:

“This was a good start, but there were issues with how the developers used to handle updates to the database data. Unlike the source code, for which Blizzard had archives for multiple branches of the game that could be worked on and developed as separate pieces, early database data was overwritten with each commensurate update. Thankfully, that problem was fixed very quickly after launch, and when we looked, we found data going back to version 1.12—and even earlier”

So they have pre-1.12 data, but he didn’t say how long after launch the vanilla dev team stopped overwriting data, except that it was very quickly after launch.

Also, during the Blizzcon WoW Classic panel, Ion made a statement on 1.12 data:

“We really had this 1.12 data that we’ve been able to restore and we viewed that as almost sacrosanct. That’s everything from, you know, the world, and the questlines, and the stories, to individual player abilities, creature health, tuning, and so forth. There’s some changes in code and architecture in the way the client responds to the server, and vice versa, that if we let stand using the modern structure, might have caused this data to produce a different result when it comes to things like game balance. And we definitely worried that if we ever felt like the result was different in a way that compelled us to crack this open, it would very much be like opening pandora’s box. Because, the second we start to substitute our modern judgement to solve problems from 12 years ago, we are deviating from our goal of a historical recreation of the game as it was, and making something different, and that’s something we want to avoid.”

“Almost sacrosanct” could mean that Blizzard won’t touch 1.12 data, but it could also mean that Blizzard can change it, but has to be careful while doing so. They’re very wary of changing 1.12 data, that much is sure, but over the entire presentation, every example and statement that touches on changing Classic involves post-vanilla features, and Ion repeats again and again that they do not want to make changes that pull the game away from authentic vanilla. The only exception is class balance, which Ion states will be 1.12 because classes were the most balanced in 1.12. No mention of being unable to revert to pre-1.12 classes, and no mention in the entire panel about being unable or unwilling to revert back to pre-1.12 versions of any aspect of vanilla.

Note the emphasis of avoiding their “modern judgement” and “deviating from our goal of a historical recreation[…]”. This is a theme throughout the presentation.

Progressive itemization is very much up in the air. Besides two words in the classic panel, words that don’t indicate that Blizzard will refuse to revert to pre-1.12 data, I’ve seen no indication and certainly no definitive proof that Blizzard intends to stay on 1.12 data no matter what.

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  • Savage Gladiator chain. Used by Warriors and Hunters, Warriors would use cadaverous chest without this item, there really wasn’t an upgrade for them in raids anyways for this slot. Hunters may use this during raids, full t1 may be better I haven’t played a hunter so I’m not sure if the stats are worth it over the 8 piece set bonus.
  • Rosewine Circle - Cauterizing band added with the domo chest is a direct upgrade from MC for every healing class
  • Titanic Leggings - another item for warriors that would be swapped out for another piece of pre-raid gear (Devilsaur) which itself has no raid upgrade in MC/BWL
  • Diana’s , Choker of the firelord is an upgrade for every caster
  • Shroud of Arcane Mastery, this is an item from the 0.5 quest line so not in the game until AQ as per the blizzcon timeline
  • Don Mauricio - Ring of spellpower x2 is an upgrade avaliable in MC for every caster clss
  • Black Dragonscale set - Savage glad chest is better, devilsaur legs are better when used with the gloves, shoulders are ok but pre-raid item truestrike shoulders is better for every melee class.
  • Boots of Heroism, not avaliable until the AQ patch as it is part of the 0.5 set
  • Mantle of Lost hope - better for priests, who will drop it to use t2 for 3 piece, wild growth spaulders better for every other healing class.

There are more upgrades available from MC with then without it, and most of the updated items that are BiS through MC/BWL are just replacing a pre-raid item that itself didn’t have any upgrade for that class in MC/BWL

Progressive itemization is a neat idea, but the experience of progressive itemization (especially the version done on private servers recently) just isn’t fun.

It worked in vanilla because people were interested in collecting their t0 sets, their t1 sets just for the sake of completing it. People don’t do that in 2018 on the private servers I have played on, I don’t really see that changing much if at all on the Classic servers.

Having 1.12.1 itemization makes more classes want to do more dungeons, it will make having a balanced group for say strat UD easier to get rather then having a group made up of a dps warrior and 3 rogues all looking for the same cloak.

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To expand on this, because they left out important points (though not surprised)

He goes on to explain what happened when they found the 1.12 data.

And just to make aware what Art Assets are- It’s basically how the entire world is given form, sound, light and existence.

So if people want to still keep believing that they had what they needed, to go back BEFORE 1.12: Then you have no idea what you are talking about.

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You’re completely dancing over the fact that 1.12 dungeon gear is greater than a lot of gear in tier 1 and tier 2. You’re also talking like these great items from MC have huge drop rates, when they just don’t.

You can go 10 weeks and not see a single Quick Strike Ring… Players will be in dungeon BiS for a long long time.

All they need is the World DB from earlier patches nothing else, implying they only wanted to revert item stats. Even if they don’t have that, it can be recreated.

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I’m not dancing over anything, t1 is for the most part garbage unless you are a warrior/hunter/rogue.

This is even more true if they do progressive itemization, the early gear had some mage t1 pieces with arcane spell damage, felheart had only + fire on some, or no spell power and health per 5 seconds as a stat.

A mage or warlock might use 3 pieces temporarily to get the 3 piece bonus, but their pre-raid gear even with progressive itemization is going to be better on the MC bosses that don’t stay alive more then 1-2 minutes.

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Will you not even admit that with 1.12 itemisation, the upgrades from MC are extremely minimal compared to 1.1? Not to mention the PvP & PvE implications of 1.12 Bonereaver’s Edge, How is it enjoyable to have that in the game at launch. However if you have played both and prefer one, that is your opinion and I respect that.

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That’s not really how it works. They showed a demonstration of what happened when they tried with the current infrastructure and data. Like floating trees, because of the difference from the vanilla assets compared to what happened after the cataclysm. A broken dame in Loch Modan, which was broken apart, was mysteriously still holding back the water as if it was not broken.

An entire world, is not something you can just recreate.

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This thread has nothing to do with a dam in Loch Modan okay, item stats are just values that can be extracted easily and plugged in however you like to a site like Wowhead.

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I’m not against progressive itemization, there is one glaring flaw that I don’t how to avoid though. How do you maintain progressive itemization for every player while also maintaining a persistent game world? Or to put it more simply, how do you give people who start on day 1 and people who start on day 1000 progressive itemization at the same time?

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To me it sounds like Blizzard will be doing something similar to what private servers do, by opening up a new server now and then so players can continue doing the Vanilla experience forever. So if they’re doing that, a new player would just join when a new server opens.

Otherwise the same argument you use against progressive itemization would also go for having any stages of content release at all.

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You replied to my post, which extended on another post by someone else. Which explains all of that and then you ask “What does this have anything to do with that?”. Not sure if you are confused or just very desperate.

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The idea of it is to stop players on day 1 racing to the end of progression and instead allow new players to catch up when they start from behind. It is the same thing as releasing raids separately and things like battleground rep rewards etc. New and more powerful gear is released progressively throughout the games lifespan just as it did in vanilla.

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I support catch up gear OP.

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What is catch up gear? That would be Heirlooms, wouldn’t it?

Wasn’t those added in Wotlk and currently exist in modern Wow?

Or do you mean the TF system?

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You don’t need art assets to alter item values…

Ironically, you bolded everything except the relevant sentence; everything bolded is irrelevant to my statement that Blizzard has unspecified pre-1.12 database backups (art assets aren’t database backups).

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But then new players don’t get to experience the “true vanilla”. Are some people supposed to be out of luck because they didn’t start playing right away? Or because they didn’t know which server was new?

You argue that progressive itemization is the true experience that people should have but are okay with some people not getting that experience?

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Did you even view the album? Most of the items are changed in 1.10 which is nearly 2 years after launch, until that point they are in their original state and do not change. Anyone joining ‘late’ is going to experience this unless they are joining the server 2 years after it launches.

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We can’t have gear that let’s us breeze through the content, we and blizzard need it to last therefore progressive itemization is 100% necessary.

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In my opinion it would help add new content to their release stages and help with content droughts. Blizzard likes money right?

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Blizzard has older database data than 1.12. It’s just a question of how far back it goes. One hopes their data goes far enough back to pull older items direct from their own official databases.

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