I get that it wasn't in vanilla, but the likelihood of you ever pugging BWL onward is really small. Hell MC will be hard enough if they use gear progression, no 1.9 gear stats till 1.9.
Don't even consider pugging AQ or Naxx. These raids will for the vast majority be done in guilds, with DKP or loot council.
5 man's are run with friends and guildies. Remember community?
1. its not vanilla like
2. its easier to abuse for selling loot than loot being bop, do you want to see trade being full of "WTS MC ALL LOOT 5k GOLD"?
2. its easier to abuse for selling loot than loot being bop, do you want to see trade being full of "WTS MC ALL LOOT 5k GOLD"?
Because gear trading does not prevent ninjas from ninjaing and in fact can encourage ninjaing in some cases.
IMO they should only allow gear trading in raids. In 5 mans there's probably going to be a lot of team ninjaing with this.
IMO they should only allow gear trading in raids. In 5 mans there's probably going to be a lot of team ninjaing with this.
It encourages ninja looting.
MC is already going to be easier if they phase it the way they said. Dire Maul will be out at release and they're starting with 16 debuffs instead of 8. Pugging MC won't be difficult.
MC is already going to be easier if they phase it the way they said. Dire Maul will be out at release and they're starting with 16 debuffs instead of 8. Pugging MC won't be difficult.
11/05/2018 08:57 AMPosted by DeallocBecause gear trading does not prevent ninjas from ninjaing and in fact can encourage ninjaing in some cases.
IMO they should only allow gear trading in raids. In 5 mans there's probably going to be a lot of team ninjaing with this.
Play with friends?? This isn't Legion. You will be known on your server, for better or worse.
11/05/2018 08:55 AMPosted by Glamour1. its not vanilla like
2. its easier to abuse for selling loot than loot being bop, do you want to see trade being full of "WTS MC ALL LOOT 5k GOLD"?
Because we can't ML loot to the highest bidder, right?
Step 1: Group with guildies
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit
11/05/2018 08:53 AMPosted by MordegastI get that it wasn't in vanilla, but the likelihood of you ever pugging BWL onward is really small. Hell MC will be hard enough if they use gear progression, no 1.9 gear stats till 1.9.
Don't even consider pugging AQ or Naxx. These raids will for the vast majority be done in guilds, with DKP or loot council.
5 man's are run with friends and guildies. Remember community?
This is a pretty reasonable point. Literally all of my dungeon runs on the classic pserver I play on are with guildies we trust. Presumably it would be the same on official classic if it's authentic.
Encouraging players to become insular is NOT a solution. This is the exact opposite of what Classic should be supporting, which is community and socialization. Any change that makes pugging more undesirable is a horrible change that is antithetical to what Classic should be.11/05/2018 09:04 AMPosted by OogaStep 1: Group with guildies
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit
11/05/2018 08:57 AMPosted by DeallocBecause gear trading does not prevent ninjas from ninjaing and in fact can encourage ninjaing in some cases.
IMO they should only allow gear trading in raids. In 5 mans there's probably going to be a lot of team ninjaing with this.
Play with friends?? This isn't Legion. You will be known on your server, for better or worse.
Yeah. I plan on making friends to play with. But they're not always going to be available when I'm online looking to run a dungeon.
It's not a huge deal if this makes it into 5 mans. I'm not going to make a big fuss about it. But you asked why people are complaining about it. This is the reason why.
11/05/2018 09:13 AMPosted by SwitzyEncouraging players to become insular is NOT a solution. This is the exact opposite of what Classic should be supporting, which is community and socialization. Any change that makes pugging more undesirable is a horrible change that is antithetical to what Classic should be.11/05/2018 09:04 AMPosted by OogaStep 1: Group with guildies
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit
You're not going to get anything done without guilds. Get used to it. That's quintessential Vanilla.
11/05/2018 09:13 AMPosted by SwitzyEncouraging players to become insular is NOT a solution. This is the exact opposite of what Classic should be supporting, which is community and socialization. Any change that makes pugging more undesirable is a horrible change that is antithetical to what Classic should be.11/05/2018 09:04 AMPosted by OogaStep 1: Group with guildies
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit
What's important is we need to be able to see who rolled need vs greed. Typical gentleman's rules are to ask if it's OK to need an item in any group. A jerk could betray everyone and need an item in the old system or new. The danger of the new system is a group of jerks could pool their need rolls and then trade.
I would think that good classic community could sort either case out. People who need when they shouldn't will be blacklisted.
You will be known on your server
/trade
"guys player x just stole y from me, he is ninja don't invite him to your groups"
player1 "lul"
player2 "rolf"
player3 "get rekt son"
This is the 2018 internet not 2006 internet, I put money on no sh~ts being given specially with retail players being able to come and go as they wish for free!
11/05/2018 08:53 AMPosted by Mordegast5 man's are run with friends and guildies. Remember community?
I'm all for going to your guild for runs but sometimes, even in the best of guilds, people just aren't up for doing that sort of thing and you HAVE to pug it. I just don't want that pug to then turn into a means to exploit players into handing over their gold when a bunch of guys agree to roll need on a healing preraid that none of them can use to try and extort some gold out of the priest that came along with them. Just think of how big things like the devilsaur mafia got when left unchecked in an environment that was 100% permitting of their actions, now picture that but being the majority of pug runs simply because the environment permits for it to happen. It may not happen constantly just based on the fact that it's a roll but it will likely happen consistently enough that it'll end up as "just one of those things" that we're forced to accept like the exploitative pricing of devilsaur gear on private servers. Do you want to pay someone's mount cost just to get your classes preraid from someone that could never use it?
I'm just going to feed the argument here, and I just want to be clear that I hate the idea of loot trading as well.
BUT
This ability to do this WAS in vanilla, and I used it QUITE often as a kid. You could join as a group, steal the piece, and then just open a ticket and it would be sent to your friend no questions asked. This does however make it easier, but it does make sense in blizzards eyes because this would take A LOT of time out of the hands of the GMs to go through every single ninja loot. Because with or without this system, people WILL still do this.
BUT
This ability to do this WAS in vanilla, and I used it QUITE often as a kid. You could join as a group, steal the piece, and then just open a ticket and it would be sent to your friend no questions asked. This does however make it easier, but it does make sense in blizzards eyes because this would take A LOT of time out of the hands of the GMs to go through every single ninja loot. Because with or without this system, people WILL still do this.
Because people would rather blacklist someone like me who accidentally need-rolls something I don't need because I thought I did need it, with no opportunity to make amends by giving it to the person who did.
Loot trading will encourage more ninja looting
It minimizes risk:
Take everything without looking and if nothing was worth taking then hand items out. "Just making sure no one ninja looted!"
maximizes reward:
Players can extort BoP for the group, effectively becoming the Master Loot. They can give items they can't use to friends or sell. When before a BoP would just be mostly potential vendor item.
Because the risk is lower and the potential for reward is higher it will encourage that behavior. Its simple psychology.
You would HAVE TO put master loot on and hope your leader wasn't going to abuse their role.
It minimizes risk:
Take everything without looking and if nothing was worth taking then hand items out. "Just making sure no one ninja looted!"
maximizes reward:
Players can extort BoP for the group, effectively becoming the Master Loot. They can give items they can't use to friends or sell. When before a BoP would just be mostly potential vendor item.
Because the risk is lower and the potential for reward is higher it will encourage that behavior. Its simple psychology.
You would HAVE TO put master loot on and hope your leader wasn't going to abuse their role.
11/05/2018 09:26 AMPosted by VictorlawBecause people would rather blacklist someone like me who accidentally need-rolls something I don't need because I thought I did need it, with no opportunity to make amends by giving it to the person who did.
If you do this on occasion enough to where it's an issue, you have some thinking issues.
11/05/2018 09:25 AMPosted by KansaskiddI'm just going to feed the argument here, and I just want to be clear that I hate the idea of loot trading as well.
BUT
This ability to do this WAS in vanilla, and I used it QUITE often as a kid. You could join as a group, steal the piece, and then just open a ticket and it would be sent to your friend no questions asked. This does however make it easier, but it does make sense in blizzards eyes because this would take A LOT of time out of the hands of the GMs to go through every single ninja loot. Because with or without this system, people WILL still do this.
So this guy is the reason this change is even happening. Get him guys!!!
11/05/2018 09:10 AMPosted by Fyedora11/05/2018 08:53 AMPosted by MordegastI get that it wasn't in vanilla, but the likelihood of you ever pugging BWL onward is really small. Hell MC will be hard enough if they use gear progression, no 1.9 gear stats till 1.9.
Don't even consider pugging AQ or Naxx. These raids will for the vast majority be done in guilds, with DKP or loot council.
5 man's are run with friends and guildies. Remember community?
This is a pretty reasonable point. Literally all of my dungeon runs on the classic pserver I play on are with guildies we trust. Presumably it would be the same on official classic if it's authentic.
Yep! Very rarely would I play with pugs in vanilla or pservers.
Far too many people have the Legion/BFA mentality.
11/05/2018 09:13 AMPosted by SwitzyEncouraging players to become insular is NOT a solution. This is the exact opposite of what Classic should be supporting, which is community and socialization. Any change that makes pugging more undesirable is a horrible change that is antithetical to what Classic should be.11/05/2018 09:04 AMPosted by OogaStep 1: Group with guildies
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit
WTF?
You're saying play with pugs instead of your friends and guildies? Keep in mind guildies should be friends too.
You make friends, you play with those friends, it's what keeps the community strong. It doesn't mean you don't invite a pug if you need to, and you never know, could be another friend! But you're always better off playing with the people you know and trust, rather than some scrub in trade chat without friends.
....there's a reason that person is in chat looking for a group, rather than playing with friends.