Rogues have been neglected since a long time. Blizzard only focuses on their babies Paladin, Mage, Warriors and Druids. I might level a sub rogue so I can be part of the gang. Most popular classes get attention while least ones will never get it.
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The problem was you could still use vanish for more dps, thus it became mandatory to do so.
They should have put a no attack cooldown of 3 seconds on the vanish. That would have kept it as a defensive cooldown only.
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Lmao, it did not. Packs were either dead by the time youd feel the need to or Shadow Dance was almost back off cooldown. I used Vanish back then purely as utility.
Or maybe stop looking to have your hand held and use abilities based on the situation?
In raids it became mandatory to use shadow dance then vanish as an extra dps cooldown.
In a raid where you are worried about not getting killed by other players mechanics haveing another cooldown is a burden. Especially since it would be nice to keep that for wipe recovery.
But min maxing standards require you use every trick to max the charts. Saving vanish it considered like not using your dps cooldowns in the fight.
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In raid, Vanish doesnt have a use besides dps. So what is your point?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwx2ce_AyOE
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Whats the relevance?
Shadow dance followed by a well timed vanish for burst dps in raids was the standard. It was a lot to time and keep up with just to maintain regular rogue dps.
So we vocalized not wanting as much to press and time in raids, and that came out as “rogues are too vanish heavy”. Blizzard did what Blizzard does and monkey pawed a fix that missed the point and made no one happy.
Shadow dance should have been our in combat vanish. But it was too much because they never appropriately fixed the original vanish. Thus using both became standard for openers and cooldowns in raiding.
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Lots of ways that itself should be fixed too because mid-combat reups are always going to be a requirement of any functioning build – tethering normalized power to stealth is always idiotic as far as design goes. Given rogue has no utility or alternative role options, using Vanish to do more damage versus other classes would just make it good class design (hint: Blizzard doesn’t do this).
So lets be real here…
lmao.
The balancing act of vanish offensively with an extra charge is honestly fine, but i also wonder if vanish by itself should come with a “weakness” window, to avoid combat exploitation anyways. Because that would immediately quash this desire to incorporate stealthy gameplay into the combat phase (lmao it’s always been bad design).
Oh and quick edit: Shadow Dance isn’t that fix. Play Sub if you like Shadow Dance. Most don’t because they know it’s bad. Sub is unplayable for me strictly because of the demand Shadow Dance imposes–squeezing all class gameplay into tiny windows. yawn
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Agreed, what is the relevance of your original post? He’s saying he wants another vanish (or meld like spell) for a defensive/get away, you just want 100% uptime on stealth abilities for dps. These are not the same.
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Literally troglodyte mentality. Sin used Dance to refresh empowered dots and got the tail end to buff final ticks of KB. Outlaw used it for Crackshot which is a damage window but at the same time doesnt need to be talented. Just cause you hate the ability doesnt mean it didnt add anything.
I was saying when Shadow Dance was in the class tree, Vanish could be used as a defensive/utility.
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Correct. Fight fire with fire. 
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Cept you dont bring fire. Just lame nonsense. You didnt play the rogue last season so its not like you know how it currently plays. Shut up and go away.
I mean not necessarily. The idea of vanishing in PVP is to GTFO and reset the fight/drs. offensive vanishing hasn’t really been that great since SL with master assassin. So unless it’s supported through outside resources, like gear/talents its pretty garbage to offensive vanish. Not only that, but supporting burst things that effect vanish NEVER apply to dance. Looking at MA, WOD S3 set bonuses that reward offensive vanishing. Even when offensive vanishing is a thing, it’s risky because if you don’t kill you have no way to leave the fight… I don’t like offensive vanish being a thing in PVP, because rogues get the mentality that if they have to vanish defensively, they’ve already lost. When it’s a thing so many rogues just die with vanish on CD, it’s dumb.
As for Sdance on other specs, idk in PVP assa doesn’t need dance for burst damage. A better argument would be shadow dance and its relationship with cross cc. Legit every expac there is a new 1 shot for assassin, it doesn’t need more burst. Not only that, but just because we have shadow dance doesn’t mean we’ll suddenly stop offensive vanishing. Why would that suddenly stop because we have access to stealth abilities?
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Ok… but im agreeing with you that Vanish shouldnt be used offensively. When Shadow Dance was in the class tree, Vanish was used the way it was intended.
This changed the moment Shadow Dance went jnto the class tree. All those Stealth talents were triggered by it.
As i said earlier, Sin doesnt use it to burst. It uses it to easily spread bleeds.
Because its not needed.
Can you actually read what ive been typing out?
I think you’re making the mistake that there’s a good faith argument behind his nostalgia grab, but it’s just scorched earth.
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It’s insane he’s trying to gas light me, telling me I can’t read XD. Anytime I come back to these forums it’s always this guy and his ego that has to kill every thread 
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Im killing the thread… by giving you the correct information?
This is not good information in pvp lol. So stop typing.
If you’re shadow dancing in arena its not to tripple dot the team lol. (breaking cross cc in the process))
Edit - Waiting for the “pvp is a dead game mode” reply or the “Well I only pve, so idk”
Sub is not that bad mechanically the problem is the numbers need to be tuned up properly for the spec in some areas but it is underrated.
Assassination right now is a all star in PVP, M+ and raiding.
Outlaw has too much stripped out of it to function properly from its base kit. Several talents need to be baseline for the spec to be on a level playing field with other specs.
Good news is Rogues are not as bad as they were at launch but at the same time the improvements have been gradual which is okay. But I think the bigger problem is the class needs to have core issues like bugs addressed and mechanics that do not make sense or are no longer relevant for the modern game. Making SND easier to use is a good example of a QoL change that fits into the modern game.
The biggest miss this expansion is the hero trees as zero work and effort went into them. Aura buffs can not really fix most of the problems with hero trees.
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