Why are people so mad with Shadowlands story?

Selemene = Elune :wink:

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Which one? Aerie Peak falling under siege and succeeding in evacuation before going the way of Splintertree or the Alliance being forced to invade STV for ‘reasons’?

Because I’ve seen pushback on both from others now.

The STV one.

As for Alliance reasoning to invade Stranglethorn Vale - it has resources, it has the potential to threaten their navy, and somewhere out there in the deep lore there was an instance where Stormwind was actually under threat from the Trolls. An aggressive invasion could be launched upon the pretense of securing Stormwind’s safety from the south - and I certainly wouldn’t mind a return to more geopolitical reasons for wars.

Okay, now how do you sell that?

Because to me, I don’t see a way to make a resource grabbing expedition much fun for the Alliance. When speaking of defense, you’d likely have to aim locally. The Gurubashi are a broken tribe at the moment and from SW’s perspective have been since Medivh Ctrl-Alt-Deleted their entire army, making them not much of a threat on their own. Booty Bay on the other hand in just kind of hanging out. Grom’gol exists, but it’s more of an outpost than a staging ground. Attacking Grom’gol also means inviting Horde retaliation, which makes Turalyon wear the idiot hat, which I’m sure the Alliance would not enjoy especially after it leads to a complete loss. The naga and murlocs aren’t worth mentioning.

STV also unfortunately has no Alliance bases, outside of that couple of tents. That leads to no objective to defeat or stem the tide from as Horde and no real place to stage anything for the Alliance. It’s just bridges, jungle, ruins, and spooky forest.

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I did suggest you earlier that maybe the trolls trying to establish the Drakkari empire is a good idea.

Maybe some Drakkari survived in the Nerubian tunnels and now the Horde with the Zanadalri re conquer their empire and restablish it.

Or like I suggested a talanji revenge plot against Jaina and kill her brother as vengeance for killing her dad.

This is part of a larger conversation that I don’t necessarily have the time to do justice but - let me tie this back to my overall scenario.

On Kalimdor, the Night Elves have all but given up on the Alliance, Worgen aside. Stormwind didn’t help them retake their lands, therefore, they will do that themselves and let Stormwind fight its own wars. This includes refusing to guard trade and transit routes between Kalimdor and the EK, and almost reaches the point of strongarming the Draenei into assisting them. (“We let you have a home on our islands, you do not get to sit on the sidelines and watch us burn again”)

That’s important because the Zandalari are starting to hit back against that Alliance in retaliation for Dazar’alor by the means I described earlier. Stormwind isn’t the uncontested power on the seas and are having to fight a pissed off Zandalari empire - and the scores of previously scattered tribes that they are bringing under their wing. Talanji’s focus is primarily on Kul’tiras and the Proudmoores, but that includes stopping anyone who would intervene - which puts Stormwind in the crosshairs as well.

It’s also important because the Forsaken are retaking their territories, and Stormwind isn’t able to consistently project power that far north, even with Dwarven and Gnomish support. They can hold things down south of the Thandol Span, but north of it? They’re not able to sustain heavy presences outside of established strongholds, and even those are under threat. Again, the Eastern Alliance has to fight these renewed conflicts alone, and these are places where the Horde are feeling that they can score some major wins.

Back at home, this feeds a paranoia that Stormwind itself is insecure. Local Gazettes print fear-tinged stories and predictions that trolls will sack Stormwind. The incident where Stormwind was nearly burned down (Saurfang’s escape) is referenced constantly. Racial paranoia erupts and people start suggesting that nearby locales hosting trolls be stamped out, with Stranglethorn Vale being at the top of the list because it’s the closest. Fears that Zandalari ships may start operating from Stranglethorn also feed the drive on Stormwind’s part to send armies south.

That’s the best I can come up with in ten minutes. :woman_shrugging:

Both fail to meet both qualifications of the scenario.

1: Trolls taking control of ‘Troll land’.

2: Striking back at the Alliance for payback for Dazar’alor and Rastakhan.

Killing Tandred or mama Proudmoore WOULD fulfill vengeance for Rastakhan, but would do nothing in regards to territory. It also just opens the door to Jaina being allowed to dunk on the Trolls down the road, leading to this just going on forever. Maybe it’s just me, but I actually like that Jaina and her mother are allowed to have a child/parent relationship. I feel like WoW tends to use those for what they did with Talanji, though their reunion in Shadows Rising was very well done (As was Mama Proudmoore’s dinner scene actually).

For the second point, I’ve been very vocal that the Drakkari are extinct. They were so on the brink in MoP that they were actually using undead for the majority of their contribution. Their current speaker says they’re toast, he probably knows better than us. Even if a handful were still alive, that does not establish a mighty Drakkari empire yet again. Maybe reestablishing Gundrak at best. It also fails to strike the Alliance.

For 10 minutes, I can’t disagree with much other than it makes it seem like the Horde can now only win because the Night Elves are withholding support.

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The Night Elves failing to provide Stormwind with support is more intended as a supporting factor for Stormwind’s paranoia - and the Horde would have unity problems to go with this. Stormwind’s primary issue is that they are having to deal with a reinvigorated Zandalari empire, and a resurgent Forsaken movement at the same time that both turned their focus on Stormwind’s interests - and while most of those are in the North, Stormwind fears that they could extend to Stranglethorn Vale - which itself becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as it forces the Horde to act there as well.

No Alliance currently occupies Troll land that has not been occupied for hundreds of years. The STV scenario reeks of forced story, worse than Night Elves making an expedition to QuelThelas for some sort of investigation.
Like you said Alliance doesn’t want STV and has had nobody there to exploit the resources. I mean if you want to put some nameless grunts at every crossroad for you to fight and “reclaim” Troll land thats fine but as you observed the Alliance has NOTHING there… so what will you do? Have Blizzard destroy troll lands further by parking castles, towers and walls to make the STV fight have more meaning?

This scenario will be Horde only anyway right? So it doesn’t impact anything on my end. I just don’t think it would be satisfying. How will killing these nameless Alliances in STV avenge Rastakhan?
Is merely killing Alliance enough? We were doing that for much of BFA.

I can answer the question in the reverse.

Yes.

It matters that when another faction completely humiliates you that you get the opportunity to strike back and demonstrate that you’re actually a threat. That is what I want after Teldrassil, and I sympathize with people who want that after Dazar’alor.

So would you say Night Elves got their revenge for Teldrassil when Jaina killed Rastakhan?

Alliance killing Horde. Revenge complete no?

No, because Dazar’alor doesn’t matter to me as a Night Elf player.

There’s an extra layer of depth here that you do have to pay some mind to. This is also why a forsaken reconquest of Lordaeron wouldn’t fix things for Troll players.

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So why should killing random Alliance be revenge enough for Trolls when they weren’t the ones responsible for Rastkhans death or sitting on currently occupied troll land?

We are putting cannon fodder where they haven’t been for the past 15 years and calling it a revenge? Like I said it doesn’t really concern me but its a weird storyline.

In the larger scenario proposed, it would be part of Zandalar extending its influence and striking back at the parties most responsible for Dazar’alor. Further, there’s one thing I think we’re leaving out: that once Zandalar did join the Horde, it caused the Horde to inherit a lot of the setbacks that previously fell on neutral “bad guy” factions.

Zandalar has lost 1/3 of their land.
Surely they are more interested in getting that land back from the Sethrak and Blood Trolls than sending an expedition to save the Gurubashi from an inexplicable Alliance invasion and nation building.

This is blatantly false. While it is true that the Alliance do not currently occupy Jungle Troll territory, outside of maybe Duskwood depending on interpretations of text, the Alliance absolutely is sitting on Forest Troll territory.

Aerie Peak and Stromgarde are both in traditional Forest Troll lands. How do you think the Trollbane dynasty got its name? Why do you think Troll ruins and villages are present in both? Rokhan calls Danath out on that during the Battle of Arathi.

And yes, this would be some sort of Alliance scenario that would tie into this.

EDIT: Upvoting for Road to El Dorado

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Why should it be a choice?

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Dude its been over a thousand years since these events. Its as old as human lore.
Do you have any more recent examples of Alliance occupying Troll land like Ashenvale that needs to be immediately retaken?

Zone updates to BFA are probably not happening if the old world gets a revamp.

I’m not sure they’d be necessary. Something like that could be accomplished in a scenario. It’s not as important as content involving the opposing faction would be.