Why are Nerubians and Kobolds being rehabilitated in the lore?

It’s okay to have pure evil beings or creatures in fantasy though. The Void Lords/Old Gods work because everything they do is in opposition to most mortals wanting to live and be free to choose their own way in life.

The one positive thing the old gods did, in the Curse of Flesh, was ulitmately so they could try turning everything and everyone into a void sock puppet

Edit: Not everything needs to be morally grey or Akkually, some are good guys. And besides, people generally do enjoy well written evil characters.

Half this game’s community belongs in a gulag.

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I don’t think anyone has a problem with (well-written, potentially relatable) evil characters, evil races on the other hand are something wildly different that doesn’t belong in fictional settings worthy of the name.

It’s always a matter of culture over nature. Sapient, sentient species are beings of culture, and as such their societies and moral systems are to be understood through culture, not nature. In some very specific cases nature can shape and play a part in culture ; for example, beings like Demons who are infused with Fel and native to the Twisting Nether may have tendencies that reflect the characteristics of Fel and the Twisting Nether (untamed, unpredictable, undefined, prone to disruption as opposed to continuity, etc) ; while beings that were born as Order-aligned constructs may express other natural tendencies, and show an inclination for stability, rationality, organization, etc. Playing with these tendencies is fine and actually it’s a cool tool for worldbuilding cuz it paves the way for a greater variety of perspectives. But those are tendencies. Tendencies that can be challenged, altered and reversed, through history, cultural contact etc. Because sentient species are people, and that’s what people do.

So it’s not about saying the Old Gods and Void Lords shouldn’t be our enemies. By all means, they should mostly be mortal enemies to us, since their vision and their interests contradict ours radically. Think of the Primalists – that Primalist Proto-Dragons want to return Azeroth to a state of elemental chaos doesn’t make them evil : of course they’d want that, such a world better suits them, and they were robbed of that environment by authoritative aliens. It’s understandable. Yet we can’t accept that for obvious reasons and so we fight them.

Same goes for the Void. Being an Old God-offshoot race (Nature) may make you more prone to certain alignments and certain behaviors, which is why most Void-based races we encountered have been hostile to us. But no matter how strong, those are still tendencies ; and we’ve met a race, the Nerubians, for whom these tendencies have been challenged and reversed because they were cut off from the Old Gods long enough for them to envision a new sort of society (Culture).

That way of writing is literally just… it’s objectively better. It makes the setting objectively richer and more engaging.

Well that’s my two cents on it anyway LMAO

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And I would agree with you. Wholeheartedly on the matter. I suppose I meant to say that it’s okay to have your outliers in society, like your Palpatines, or a Nagash for Warhammer fantasy and SW fans. :dracthyr_heart:

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i take it as somewhat significant that in most cases, those who desire or argue for ontically evil races or clades of creature usually have the desire for uncomplicated violence, as well. in other words, ‘we need these evils to exist because we want something to fight.’ which really tends to cash out as being less about morality and more about how mmorpgs work lol

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There’s also the group, however big or small they may be, that are also of the mindset that We want to slaughter X race and not have to think about it/feel bad or the game questioning why we’re so psychotic towards these specific races

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yeah p much. it crops up from time to time during faction war discussions or, like, convos re: the amani/high elves. a perceived slight is enough to warrant entirely unequivocal slaughter etc. etc.
sorta soapboxy but the point is the same. no one wants to be less than the hero

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I actually think trying to make both sides equally heroic (or more precisely, making them both the exact same kind of heroic, Male Human Paladin Heroic) has been the ruination of the faction conflict narrative specifically.

I don’t mind of the Horde has more evil members than the Alliance, as long as both have’em and also have good members. Hell, the real problem (IMO) with what happened in BFA wasn’t just that it made Horde EVIL and Alliance GOOD (and the only GOOD Horde characters are those who would work with the Alliance) was that BOTH sides were written as STUPID Good and STUPID Evil.

If the Horde wants to turn an entire city of elves into S’mores, so long as doing so benefits the Horde, then that’s GOOD… for the Horde, anyway. But if it’s because one emo elf chick is unhappy to discover that life is in fact ‘not fair’ and wants to tear down existence itself (starting with everyone ELSE, of course) because of it?.. Well, screw that noise.

Wild how western values is apparently, “Some races are evil”

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You’re right.

Tolkien’s orcs, as the given example of it, are not it however.

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Which is why I specifically mention the Void Lords and the Old Gods as being good pure evil beings

Actually, it would be pretty cool if some Void Lords were good. It would help bring nuance to the story.

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I wouldn’t mind that at all actually. I wouldn’t mind meeting some of the lesser Void Lords who want to help, but can’t because by their very nature, they have to consume energy to materialize

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my memory is that locus-walker tells alleria the void lords possess what they understand as love for the naaru and creatures of the light, but believe them to be misguided or something of the sort. it seems that to them, embracing the void is beneficial, so they’re doing everyone a favor. what does that sound like?

“[Character Class], I need your help. Please kill 10 [___________]. For no other reason that their continued existence annoys me, and I like watching them die. Here use this quest item to burn their corpses to ashes after you’ve killed them.”

[you gain FLAMETHROWER]

Kill 10 [________]
Use FLAMETHROWER on 10 [_______] corpses

Rewards:
Questing Green
25 Gold
5000 Experience

…I don’t know what it’s the blank, but I’m killing it. If you wanted me to feel bad about it, you shouldn’t have made killing and cremating 10 of them for money not simply a viable but beneficial action for my character. If you do, you don’t actually care about it, you’re just moral posturing to look good for people who probably don’t even like the game in the first place.

Do you want to give [_______] a sympathetic backstory, culture, and history? That’s fine! But I’m not getting a questing green, 25 gold, and 5000 experience learning that.

I’m not really too bothered about your opinion on the Kobolds, since I can understand it — although it’s not really bothersome to me; however the Nerubians is another story …

With the Nerubians — They’re not being rehabilitated.
They’re being established as they truly are.

In the past, we faced against UNDEAD Nerubians.

Arthas pretty much went to Northrend, invaded their under-labyrinth kingdoms and commited mass genocide to majority of their species; practically wiping them out & raising them into undeath.

  • We also already teamed up with some friendly Nerubians in WOTLK (they provide us quests) to take down the “Traitor King” that was also risen into undeath, so it’s hardly a new concept.

The Nerubians had their own society, technology, heirachy and culture back in Wrath — So a different nation of them having the same; merely with some mild differences, is pretty solid continuity of their conceptual lore.

:thinking: From what I recall, the Nerubians in Northrend didn’t all worship Yogg’Saron either; save except a few – but such could be easily said about all our races too (with the Twilight’s Hammer) so jumping back to the present, having some Nerubians side with Xal’atath + the void and then having some fight against them is pretty reasonable.

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HA. Sometimes the soviets get it right. Plus side, corrupted blood prepared me for covid.

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It depends.

When you have something like “these things were created to be evil by not God and all they are is evil” that’s not horrible. Like a homunculus or a golden army of clockwork killing machines. Or a horde of locusts. Or if “evil” is a cosmic force in your universe and beings of evil are invading your world from the dimension of evil… They are evil and that’s ok.

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I think everyone is missing the most important question this brings up. When can I roll my Kobold or Murloc toon?

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Not only when can we play one, the most important question is why can’t I adopt all the Kobolds?

Skitters is ADORABLE! :dracthyr_heart:

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