10/31/2018 07:47 AMPosted by
Grombo
If you see a pattern of gross imbalance that isn't addressed, you're going to think the game is kinda !@#$.
And my entire point is that the player who sees that imbalance and gives up on PvP entirely would have given up on it anyway when they come up against some other seemingly impassible obstacle down the road. You have to have the right mentality to enjoy PvP in this game, Bajheera talked about it a while back on stream, he called it the "killer instinct". When you lose to another player, which
will happen regardless of your skill/gear level, there are two distinct ways to respond. Either feel bad and blame the loss on their gear was OP, their class was OP, your class is UP, they're a twink, etc... or look at them and think "i want to get that skilled/geared so I can come back and beat them" and then look at your talents/gear/gameplay and improve it. If you're a player who falls in the first camp you will never last long in PvP no matter what kind of systems Blizz puts in place, and if you are the type to be motivated by a loss then twinking wouldn't dissuade you anyway.
PvP isn't for everyone, and that's totally fine. People find different aspects of the game fun, and at the end of the day this is a
game, fun is the entire point. For some taking a low lvl toon and putting them in BiS for that bracket is what they find fun, let them enjoy the game in their own way. In the end it's just low level bgs, they affect a small percentage of the population and have no effect on end game content.
And my entire point is that the player who sees that imbalance and gives up on PvP entirely would have given up on it anyway when they come up against some other seemingly impassible obstacle down the road. You have to have the right mentality to enjoy PvP in this game, Bajheera talked about it a while back on stream, he called it the "killer instinct". When you lose to another player, which will happen regardless of your skill/gear level, there are two distinct ways to respond. Either feel bad and blame the loss on their gear was OP, their class was OP, your class is UP, they're a twink, etc... or look at them and think "i want to get that skilled/geared so I can come back and beat them" and then look at your talents/gear/gameplay and improve it. If you're a player who falls in the first camp you will never last long in PvP no matter what kind of systems Blizz puts in place, and if you are the type to be motivated by a loss then twinking wouldn't dissuade you anyway.
This works for rated play, not for low level bgs. Once you hit max level, you can actually try to attain the same gear to even out the playing field.
In low levels bgs that's not going to happen against twinks, you either are a twink, or you're fodder for them. They turn xp-off so they can get bis gear and not worry about buying enchants over and over. It's unreasonable to expect levelers to have fully enchanted gear and bis gear.
You can get close or surpass them in skill, but you're not going to meet their raw power/survivability. Which is why they twink.
1 Like
10/31/2018 08:15 AMPosted by
Grombo
And my entire point is that the player who sees that imbalance and gives up on PvP entirely would have given up on it anyway when they come up against some other seemingly impassible obstacle down the road. You have to have the right mentality to enjoy PvP in this game, Bajheera talked about it a while back on stream, he called it the "killer instinct". When you lose to another player, which will happen regardless of your skill/gear level, there are two distinct ways to respond. Either feel bad and blame the loss on their gear was OP, their class was OP, your class is UP, they're a twink, etc... or look at them and think "i want to get that skilled/geared so I can come back and beat them" and then look at your talents/gear/gameplay and improve it. If you're a player who falls in the first camp you will never last long in PvP no matter what kind of systems Blizz puts in place, and if you are the type to be motivated by a loss then twinking wouldn't dissuade you anyway.
This works for rated play, not for low level bgs. Once you hit max level, you can actually try to attain the same gear to even out the playing field.
In low levels bgs that's not going to happen against twinks, you either are a twink, or you're fodder for them. They turn xp-off so they can get bis gear and not worry about buying enchants over and over. It's unreasonable to expect levelers to have fully enchanted gear and bis gear.
You can get close or surpass them in skill, but you're not going to meet their raw power/survivability. Which is why they twink.
And once again you have missed the point.. you're pretty damn good at that!
Sure it's not feasible for levelers to actually get on par with twinks, certainly not new players. The actual act of getting yourself to their level is not my point though... it's the
mentality. If you are a player with that "killer instinct", to borrow Bajheera's concept, then you will look up a twink and realize their gear is insane and then shrug and say "ok thats a fight I'm just not gonna win" and then que up again and get out of that bracket (as I myself have done many many times while leveling) or you go make a twink of your own to come back and beat them with. You don't just give up on PvP. The person who
does give up on PvP because of this will inevitably find a reason to give up on it regardless. Even if they put twinks in their own bracket, as you seem to want, that player who gets discouraged and quits over twinks will give up the first time they lose to a more skilled opponent, or face a perfectly executed counter comp in arenas, or get's ganked by a rogue in the world, etc. There is always going to be moments in PvP where you lose and it feels unfair and one-sided. It just comes down to how one responds at that point.
3 Likes
Even if they put twinks in their own bracket, as you seem to want, that player who gets discouraged and quits over twinks will give up the first time they lose to a more skilled opponent
This isn't true and you know it. Even a more skilled player won't 2-shot someone like a NEET will. You're trying to red herrings to excuse the disparity issue.
3 Likes
I am in no way a twink player but they’re fine. Blizzard offers boosts for new players now for the past how many expansions?
10/31/2018 08:45 AMPosted by
Jugajr
I am in now way a twink player but they’re fine. Blizzard offers boosts for new players now for the past how many expansions?
So instead of fixing a known problem, just have everyone boost every toon to 110? That makes sense!
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I am in now way a twink player but they’re fine. Blizzard offers boosts for new players now for the past how many expansions?
So instead of fixing a known problem, just have everyone boost every toon to 110? That makes sense!
Correct. Or they could level through quests/dungeons, the occasional BG here and there. If pvp were the *only* way to level, I would definitely understand.
10/31/2018 08:49 AMPosted by
Jugajr
Correct. Or they could level through quests/dungeons, the occasional BG here and there. If pvp were the *only* way to level, I would definitely understand.
Nobody ever said it was the only way, but it's "a" way. That's why separate queues were one of the absolute best things Blizzard ever did for the game. It's like Warmode. You can pick/choose without having to forsake.
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That's why separate queues were one of the absolute best things Blizzard ever did for the game.
For who? That person who quickly levels through a bracket anyway? I feel like this is the premade vs solo queue debate. Splitting up the playerbase isn't actually healthy for the game itself.
Even if they put twinks in their own bracket, as you seem to want, that player who gets discouraged and quits over twinks will give up the first time they lose to a more skilled opponent
This isn't true and you know it. Even a more skilled player won't 2-shot someone like a NEET will. You're trying to red herrings to excuse the disparity issue.
Sure 1v1 you won't get two shot by a more skilled opponent.. but that is just one example of adversity that would make a carebear quit. You conveniently left off my second example... facing a well played comp in arenas. A good RMP for instance
absolutely can two-shot you inside of a cheap shot, what's more they can do so while simultaneously CCing every single member of your team. For a new pvper just getting into arenas that would feel pretty much as unfair as twinks.
It's about that feeling of helplessness, and how one responds to it. Being two shot by a twink, being completely CC chained by an RMP in arenas, getting killed inside a stunlock by a rogue in world PvP, etc. all these examples have the same effect, make the victim feel completely helpless. How one responds to that is my entire argument, the kind of person who experiences that and turns off world pvp and never ques again is just not cut out for PvP,
that is the person who would quit PvP over twinks. But if you are the type of player who looks at any of those scenarios and tries to figure out what you could have done to change the outcome, even if in all cases that isn't possible, then you are certainly not going to give up on PvP entirely over some low lvl bg imbalance.
That is my entire argument, that we are not losing any PvPers over twinks, that the player who gives up on bgs because of them would not have been a long term PvPer anyway.
1 Like
10/31/2018 08:59 AMPosted by
Jugajr
That's why separate queues were one of the absolute best things Blizzard ever did for the game.
For who? That person who quickly levels through a bracket anyway? I feel like this is the premade vs solo queue debate. Splitting up the playerbase isn't actually healthy for the game itself.
For everyone. It got huge praise because of all the things it fixed. It allowed NEETs who play with only NEETs as they always said that's what they wanted. Levelers could try out occasional PVP without false readings. Everyone won! It was extremely healthy for the game. The
only people who complained when they were split were the XP-OFF people who were mad that they had to fight fair fights.
3 Likes
You conveniently left off my second example... facing a well played comp in arenas
I left it out because it was a silly red herring. BGs =/= Arena.
That is my entire argument, that we are not losing any PvPers over twinks, that the player who gives up on bgs because of them would not have been a long term PvPer anyway.
That's a silly assumption based upon nothing more than pessimistic theorycrafting.
Let me clear something, I don’t think I’m a pvp god or anything. Im just a guy that likes to have fun rather than grind m+ for 10 hours a day. Twinking is FUN
1 Like
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So instead of fixing a known problem, just have everyone boost every toon to 110? That makes sense!
Correct. Or they could level through quests/dungeons, the occasional BG here and there. If pvp were the *only* way to level, I would definitely understand.
How dare you bring logic into this! I have noticed in these few twink threads that theres about 2-3 massive twink hateing players in here and then theres the other group of people that dont twink either that {seems to have more people on} where they don't see it as a non issue
I left it out because it was a silly red herring. BGs =/= Arena.
Well the original comment I replied to claimed that twinks makes new players give up on
PvP... not bgs specifically.
And I still think that is a false argument. No one who gives up on PvP entirely over low level bg imbalance was going to last long.
And I still think that is a false argument. No one who gives up on PvP entirely over low level bg imbalance was going to last long.
Pessimistic theorycrafting.
Then you will look up a twink and realize their gear is insane and then shrug and say "ok thats a fight I'm just not gonna win" and then que up again and get out of that bracket
Then you get out of that bracket and fight brand new groups of twinks! Played 10 games on sunday, all of them had twinks. Played two games on monday they had twinks too. The problem is getting worse. I don't know how many times you expect people to fight futile battles before giving up. You just expect people to get farmed over and over and not get tired of it?
you go make a twink of your own to come back and beat them with. You don't just give up on PvP.
I have considered it, but here's the thing. I don't want to twink, it's !@#$ing boring farming people. It isn't fun. I'd just end up becoming the thing that I hate and ruining the game for other people.
And once again you have missed the point.. you're pretty damn good at that!
I understand what you're saying. It's just wrong. You're trying to make getting farmed in bgs by people vastly out gear and are much more optimized equivalent to being outplayed in an arena match.
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That dont twink either that {seems to have more people on} where they don't see it as a non issue
It's cause they aren't playing low level bgs and it doesn't affect them.
10/31/2018 09:14 AMPosted by
Grombo
I have considered it, but here's the thing. I don't want to twink, it's !@#$ing boring farming people. It isn't fun. I'd just end up becoming the thing that I hate and ruining the game for other people.
I did it one time to prove a point. I kept hearing "we twink only to fight other twinks" and I thought "ok! Let's find out!" So I made one and any time I saw a NEET, they completely avoided me. I ran at them, they ran away. However, those same people when I tried a character with a level at the bottom of the bracket stuck to me like flies to poop.
2 Likes
And I still think that is a false argument. No one who gives up on PvP entirely over low level bg imbalance was going to last long.
Fun fact, twinks are also in skirmishes. I learned this by trying to do those too.