The undead female got a charm to it tho…
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They sorta prove my case though. Necromancers like Gandling are incapable of producing the level of undead a Forsaken PC is.
It’s demonstrably a higher form of undeath.
Sure, I don’t see them actually doing that unless maybe if they were planning to make her the new Forsaken leader immediately. But their focus was on Saurfang for Hordeside story in this expac.
I’m not sure what you’re responding to? My point was that the Val’kyr were undead capable of thought that were bound to Bolvar.
Oh my bad. Thought that was in refernce to me noting that Forsaken raising wasnt the same as bog standard necromancy.
And yeah that was weird. Last I saw them they were trying to throw me off Icecrown Citadel now they’re chilling with Windy.
But hey you get a pass when you look like a literal angel.
It isn’t really… the purpose of bog standard necromancy is to create unthinking minions to use as servants or cannon fodder.
The Forsaken are free-willed. That’s an important distinction not usually found in mose undead tropes, especially non-sexy undead like zombies.
The Sylvannas story isn’t closed yet and there are a lot of ambiguities left in the wake of her sudden departure from the public scene and the private departure with her loyalists.
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I don’t think she’d have gotten that treatment in any expansion. At best if she becomes the new Queen Regent maybe we’ll get something retroactive explaining it.
But I maintain it’s a natural feeling place for the character to end up. You see her start fleeing from the Forsaken then going on a path of destruction it’s blatantly obvious she actively hopes includes herself.
Her getting to a “I’m okay with what I am and want other undead to feel that way” is a really just nice spot for a character we see suffer so thoroughly from minute one to wind up at. I absolutely agree it needed more time to cook but of all the hand brake character turns I’m happy for one that actually feels like a good character arc - even if it was rushed.
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Well of course you are dead, you’re a Forsaken. 
But for real though, I gotta say that I appreciate how well you articulate your thoughts on this matter.
However, I have to voice my disagreement with your opinion on Forsaken representation in Legion, it definitely didn’t start off with nearly as much promise as you claim. Nearly all of the characters you mentioned were all kinda separate entities and none of which have ever been a part of the Forsaken society as a whole such as Alonsus and Meryl, and constantly wanted to distance themselves from the Forsaken much as possible just so that we don’t get any ideas in our head that these characters would actually join the Hordes’ Forsaken.
I’m certain you’re not at all unfamiliar with how I feel about “Warchief Windrunner” at the expense of Vol’jin. Not only was it paltry fan service and a weak attempt at parity with the Alliance due to their loss of Varian, but in hindsight served purely as setup for that travesty known as BfA.(since we know Vol’jin wasn’t going to start a faction war) I’ll never understand how people could actually be happy or excited with this, Vol’jin was already unanimously agreed upon by a majority of the Horde fanbase to be an excellent choice in Warchief. There was absolutely no need to change that to put an incredibly divisive character like Sylvanas in his place. Additionally what’s with this all of a sudden comraderie between Varian and Sylvanas. Varian isn’t particularly fond of Sylvanas according to his dialogue post-SoO. In which he states that “Sylvanas must be contained.” Not to mention the whole Wrathgate incident in which he was literally at Sylvanas’s throat last time they met.
Were they though? Sure if the Alliance were exclusively using the motivation of the perceived betrayal of the Broken Shore, you’d be right. But that was only the straw that broke the camels’ back. Genn and Rodgers’ motivations were clearly their respective homes and peoples which were annihilated by Sylvannas back in Cataclysm, the Broken Shore fiasco was simply the excuse they needed to get their revenge.
The whole Sylvanas/Forsaken Stormheim plot felt very rushed and contrived. Sure, maybe it was fine from a Forsaken’s PoV, but as any other Horde race you’re basically being dragged into Sylvanas’s conflict with Greymane and Rodgers that she started back in Cataclysm, yet we’re supposed to sympathize with her and take her side on the matter because she is Warchief? Why? She’s never been a particularly loyal ally from day 1 and her allegiance to the Horde has always been in question. Why now is my non-Forsaken character now expected to go clean up a mess that she basically created all the way back in Cataclysm?
The answer to that; Idk.
The thing with Warchief Sylvanas is that while motivation for Forsaken characters may be there, there’s basically none for non-Forsaken characters to be invested in her and her motives.(unless the player is a fan of the character specifically) Most of her goals are usually incredibly shady things that requires one to ditch their moral codes to go about serving her, I shouldn’t have to throw my character fantasies in the garbage to enjoy my faction. And I’m well aware that every Horde player has a distinct idea on what the faction should be like, and that’s a good thing, the Horde is designed to be a mixing pot of different cultures and ideas, so why should anyone be forced to forsake their own races’ ideals to be more in line with Sylvanas, she’s the least “Horde” character in the faction’s entire roster. While Orcs, Blood elves, Tauren, Trolls, and even Gobbo’s ideologies can all coincide nicely together, Forsaken are the only race that feels like it needs to actively subtract and discard ideologies from that mixing pot, as alot of their racial fantasy goes directly against alot of the fantasies of other Horde races.
Like, while Tauren are a generally noble and peaceful race who only resort to violence as a last resort, Forsaken are a sinister and conniving race who will utterly destroy those who obstruct their plans.
While Lor’themar is conservative leader who sees the protection of his people and culture as high priority, Sylvanas see’s her people as a means to an end and tools to be used against her enemies.
I mean, the general mindsets of the Forsaken and the rest of the Horde races couldn’t be anymore different, and that’s where my problem is. Sure, in Legion Sylvanas does some good stuff like saving the Horde at the Broken Shore and showing visual concern at the death of Vol’jin, but is it genuine? People wonder why I so heavily doubt Sylvanas’s legitimacy, it’s not because “dead lady bad”, but because Sylvannas is not a character known for having showing public displays of compassion for others besides her own Forsaken, let alone other members of the Horde.(which she originally joined as an ally of convenience, bearing no true loyalties to the faction at large)
So forgive me if the concept of her displaying it now is so alien to me. It’s just very, very, hard to believe that all of a sudden she feels genuinely sorry for the loss of Vol’jin when she’s been primarily to known shown disdain and sardonicism for much of her allies. Even Lor’themar at SoO, her former deputy and comrade whom she had “jokingly” hoped he died so she could raise him from the dead and Baine who she had called an Alliance bootlicker in WC, as true as it may be. I mean, she’s not a particularly warm or nice person.
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You said a lot, and I’m kind of in a hurry, so I’ll just ask this:
I don’t agree with every opinion you hold, but you’re free to believe whatever you want about Sylvanas and the Forsaken, and I’m not going to argue against that. But the OP’s post was basically saying “here’s why I felt the Forsaken were in a decent place in Legion” and your reply is more along the lines of “But [I think] nobody else liked it” and trying to persuade the OP that his opinion is incorrect.
I didn’t feel particularly “forced” into anyone else’s conflict in Stormheim, and I believe your pre-existing dislike of Sylvanas colors your opinion here. Rather, I felt that part of the Horde was under attack, and I was glad to fight back on behalf of one of the Horde’s races. I’ve never felt that any one race of the Horde was worth less than any other - because holding those kinds of beliefs is what leads to this deep and bitter internal division as one group or the other expresses their desire to “purify” the Horde by cutting out those races they don’t like.
As an aside, the Alliance doesn’t have this problem mostly because every single race they get is forcibly jammed into the Alliance characterization stereotype. The two attempts to make an “edgy” race in the Worgen and the Void Elves gave us British werewolves and purple Blood Elves, and the Night Elves have been sanded down for years to fit into the mold.
EDIT: Never actually asked a question. Oops.
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Sylvanas saves Varian from an Infernal, because she’s evil, and hopes he’ll die?
Sylvanas banters with the Alliance like both sides are working together, because she’s evil and wants us to hate one another.
Sylvanas witnesses Vol’jin get stabbed, and cries out, rushes to his side, and calls for a retreat to save the remaining Horde… Because she wants him to die so she gets the big chair.
Vol’jin pleads with Sylvanas to lead the Horde and protect it. She appears completely overwhelmed by this, and hesitantly accepts… Because she was desperately trying to hide her maniacal laughter, and call everyone fools.
I’d say the lead into Legion for Forsaken fans was a complete and utter bait and switch. We were baited with the promise of coming together with the Horde at the sour cost of Vol’jin, and we got a second Horde Villainy streak.
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You cant keep everything that made you forsaken! Ever since the end of Warcraft 3 there was always going to be a recknoning with Sylvanas and her Forsaken. On the one hand, sure you could feel pity for them and what they went though because of Arthas/the Scourge but the moment they went out of their way to attack innocents/betray Garithos you know they were the bad guys.
No bad guy in Warcraft ever lasts forever and all end up dead sooner or later. Either the Forsaken changes for the better or end up villainized time and again!
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We’ll never see eye to eye on this, Zerde.
You’re a Prince Callum fan.
I’m a Lord Viren fan.
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Likewise, Jellex.
Cuz you’re a fan of the character, whom I said prolly wouldn’t mind approaching Stormheim from that mindset.
I’m saying for those who don’t play Forsaken or aren’t a massive fan of the character Sylvanas like myself, we don’t have much to be invested in. It’s basically just Sylvanas getting comeuppance that was already several years in the making.
Yeah, the part of the Horde that, canonically, was barely clinging onto the faction to begin with according to the Forsaken’s intro in Classic:
Though the very land is cursed, the zealous Humans of the Scarlet Crusade still cling to their scattered holdings, obsessed with the eradication of the Undead and retaking their homeland. Convinced that the primitive races of the Horde can help them achieve victory over their enemies, the Forsaken have entered an alliance of convenience. Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition.
And there was still the huge schism from the events of the Wrathgate. Now while it wasnmt Sylvanas’s fault, it doesn’t change the fact that it done under her nose according to the Forsaken’s Cataclysm introduction:
Betrayed by Grand Apothecary Putress at the
Battle of Wrathgate, the Forsaken’s devious plague of death was unleashed upon both the Alliance and Horde to calamitous effect. Unbeknownst to Sylvanas, Putress and his demonic ally Varimathras had taken control of the Undercity. As a result, the Forsaken were wrongfully blamed for the traitors’ atrocities. Though the Undercity was eventually retaken, Sylvanas and her followers still bear the weight of Putress’ sins. Mistrusted by the other members of the Horde, the Forsaken must now prove their loyalty to the cause and redeem themselves from their supposed treachery.
Ok, and I’m glad that you feel that way, but you have to understand that in-canon, that’s kinda how been since Wrathgate and it’s never been addressed, and was promptly brushed under the rug when she became Warchief. There was no closure on that plot point.
I’m aware you like to pin my grievances on some petty personal hate I have for Sylvanas, which while I do, that’s not where the major issues I have with her and the Forsaken come from.
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Huh, that’s actually a much better way of thinking about it.
You expect Sylvanas to actually step up and change for the better only to go the complete opposite direction that she was being set up for.
Ok, I can get behind this perspective.
But I still think killing Vol’jin to push Sylvanas forward was a stupid decision tho.
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I’ll be completely honest - I do think your vendetta against Sylvanas and the Forsaken is a dividing, negative force. I believe it holds no benefit for Horde at large or Horde players whatsoever.
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What do you mean it was brushed under the rug? That was in Wrath. It’s been years and the Forsaken have been nothing but reliable allies to the other races of the Horde since.
Not that it’s always been mutual. In Edge of Night it’s written that Garrosh, not Slyvanas, ordered the invasion of Gilneas. Unlike Slyvanas however Garrosh intends to march the Forsaken into the Gilnean meat grinder until they’re expended. Then toss them aside and let the Alliance have their way with Lordaeron once the Gilneas campaign fails.
That’s the Forsaken intro to Cata.
“So the Warchief is a madman that wants us all dead, that’s fun, and oh our Orcish backup are all of bunch of incompetent drunks. Neat. Welp the crazy folks who either hate us or need to be rescued by us say don’t use the plague and go get mauled by cockney werewolves. But, uh, how about tuck fhat and Blight this dreary place we didnt want to invade in the first place”
Glenn’s anger is frankly misplaced. None of that would’ve happened if Garrosh hadn’t decided he wanted Gilneas. The Forsaken just finished the war he started.
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That is, until Blizzard went and crossed out that bit of lore and wrote over it, “But Sylvanas actually wanted Gilneas the whole time, because she’s super duper evil, and Garrosh gave her the opening she needed to hurt more innocents. So very evil, right?”
Thanks Chronicles. Thanks Blizzard.
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Oh yeah I forgot about retconning everything to retroactively make Slyvanas responsible for all wrongdoing.
I didn’t even like her after EoN. That book kinda cemented not coming back after Wrath. I didn’t stop because of that but “Hey turns out that character you like sincerely could not care less if the Forsaken were violently eradicated unless it directly effects her” was enough to cool any curiosity I had with trying to play again. Thought it was sufficient enough evil but, apparently not.
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At least I assume we are both Dragon Prince fans. So we will have to settle with that.
In BFA the Alliance were right about everything they ever said about the Forsaken.
You’re welcome, Forsaken Players.
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