Guys, cmon, the forsaken didn’t worship Sylvanas THAT much. It totally makes sense that they would just move on. Dark lady watch over you is a metaphor!
Isn’t it ironic that kael’s coming back? I am sure that he’ll finally get a chance to explain his sudden villandom from BC in a reasonable and non nostalgia filled way.
I mean i could 100% see BfA being used to seperate Sylvanas from the forsaken, it’s just they didn’t do anything with it until the last minute. Have the forsaken start to doubt sylvanas after her war messes them up, have them be upset over her doing things actually detrimental to the forsaken.
But they didn’t and made the end result feel unearned. They had ample oppurtunities to make the forsaken doubt her before this (BtS, Her blowing up Undercity, her pointless war going very poorly) but never did anything with those things.
I’ll just leave this right over heeeeere:
https://www.wowhead.com/quest=24575/liberation-dayNon-Forsaken don’t matter, so their enslavement is hardly anything to fuss over.
Then I repeat the same thing I told you in the Discord.
What about Derek?
What about Derek?
He was a tool, not Forsaken.
Just being undead doesn’t make you Forsaken.
Being raised by the Val’kyr of Sylvanas does.
As we’ve seen in the starting zone of Forsaken, those who are unwilling to be Undead are sent back to their graves, those who go crazy get killed.
Derek was unwilling to be raised as Undead but Sylvanas mind-broke him in order to do her bidding, double standards much?
Gharion on Story Forums asked me to post this:
https://www.wowhead.com/quest=24575/liberation-day
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Theresa
https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=166678/brynjas-beacon
No, willingly joining the political entity known as The Forsaken makes one Forsaken.
Derek didn’t get a chance to join, so he never got a chance to have his free will matter. To which I say, tough luck.
Of course it’s a double standard, but I never liked the Forsaken because they were perfect.
Sylvanas enslaved minds left and right in Warcraft III. There is no actual difference between forcing the living or the undead against their will. Whatever nonsense about Sylvanas respecting free will was just hypocrisy and propaganda at best:
Sylvanas Windrunner: These bandits will serve me well. Let’s find their ringleader and steal his mind. Sylvanas Windrunner: You may as well surrender now, cretin. You’ll be my slave one way or another.
Blackthorn: Never! Blackthorn: Lady Sylvanas is master here. We fight for her, brothers! Sylvanas Windrunner: Hmm… my own band of assassins. Intriguing.
Snarlmane: Back, you dead! No one trespasses on our territory!
Sylvanas Windrunner: Will someone please steal his mind and be done with it?
If someone dies before she can mind control them:
Sylvanas Windrunner: Damn. He never had a chance to serve me.
It’s stated in the UVG that the Forsaken term is employed to refer to the Race and the Faction.
By that logic, neither of those from the Cata starting experience.
I don’t know what that is, but whatever that is it is wrong. Forsaken is the faction period. Undead is the race. There are many undead who are not foresaken. You become foresaken by joining the faction. Derek belongs to that collection of aberations from the stillwater farm. His existence probably a crime according certain sections of Foresaken society but not foresaken.
An official source, the Ultimate Visual Guide.
Leonid Is a Forsaken, yet he serves the Argent Dawn.
forsakens: “free will is everything! we are not like arthas who used us as a simple weapon!”
Also forsakens:“Well of course he is a weapon, he is a proudmoore and this is war omegalul, if we can kill the proudmoore family we win the war to end all life!”
Forsaken Free Will matters.
If you ain’t Forsaken, well, tough luck.
They may be Forsaken but they’re not Sylvannas’ Forsaken.
They’re no more Forsaken then the Abominations they use for Guards/Target Practice.
That’s the problem with Sylvannas’ bluster about “Valuing Free Will” above all others. It was never genuine. It’s typical Political talk like “Lower Taxes!” and “Build the Wall!”
Keeps the Sheep believing that wolf has their best interests in mind, so long as he promises only to eat the OTHER sheep.
I think generally speaking there’s a pretty big distinction between the living and undead. Is treating one different from the other in the case of them being sapient beings hypocrisy? Well yeah but a culture having glaring contradictions and double standards sorta tracks if you ask me.
As for WC3 - well the Forsaken, second to the Draenei, probably have the weirdest relationship to it’s lore. Since they’re essentially a retcon. They simply do not appear in WC3 as anything resembling what they’d become. As I understand it WoW was being developed before WC3 was completely finished. So if the Forsaken come off like a hurriedly finished concept with a lot of inconsistencies it’s because they were.
But that was 15 years ago. In the intervening time themes like identifying around free will, mad science and the rebirth of Lordaeron (now with 60x more spook per square mile) sprung up around them. Windrunner being a complete fraud is pretty evident now. But the Forsaken seemed to hold the ideals pretty earnestly. Until they didn’t because somebody had to be the disposable canon fodder for rebels.
In retrospect Windrunner using the San’Layn for that could’ve also worked. Always thought it was weird they only appear in the Alliance campaign to be obliterated since we’re getting a whole Dracula afterlife. Having them turn up Red side would be a nifty reveal for just how out clucks the Banshee Queen was. But instead, well see above.
Relevant to this point, here’s a quote from Bo Bell, who worked on the original development of WoW:
How many Forsaken actually said that? There were something like 4 present and involved in this whole boondoggle, Zelling, Voss, Nathanos and the new girl, the big boned one from Kul Tiras. Hardly a great sample size by itself. Hell, the only established Forsaken present was Nathanos and his weird relationship with Sylvanas guarantees he’ll be an outlier on anything.
This thread got derailed. Why are female Draenei shaman always the most anti-Horde posters? It’s bizarre.