It gets 100% of spellpower while it has twice the cast time. So unless wrath is getting less that 50% of spellpower than that argument doesn’t quite hold. It gets 57% of the spell power, so it is actually more efficient since you can cast it twice for every star cast. The only reason you dont is because if you crit than star is 2.5 while wrath is 1.0 and thus faster than the global. IMO the optimal version would be wrath until it crits(and the buff shows up when you cast, not when it lands) and then star at that point.
However, that only applies if you are not going arcane exclusive. The arcane exclusive set is also garbage for clearing trash(unless you want to constantly be burning potions and consumes).
I said clears or clear times. An entire raid cumulatively doing 6000 less DPS is going to have a noticeable impact on one of those two areas.
I don’t like the term “carried” (i joined late and just used the terms that other people have been using) because it is vague and doesn’t actually mean anything.
But I would say that if you are doing DPS at level at which:
A) You can easily be replaced by randos
B) If the entire raid did your level of DPS they would struggle to clear the same amount of content
C) If the entire raid did your level of DPS their clear times would be significantly slower
You are “getting carried”. Although, even that comes with caveats of course. If your guild couldn’t fill out the raid with 40 people, anyway, then someone doing suboptimal DPS isn’t really getting “carried”. If you are one of the world’s best at a meme spec, you could outperform a replacement level mage, etc. If your guild is struggling to clear an encounter, then technically if everyone did the same DPS as your 7th best DPS’er you could fail the encounter, etc. There’s a lot of variables to consider and we are talking in generalities.
Which is fair, but none of that is objective criteria since carried is a dichotamous variable. DPS that would be top in one guild would be “carried” in another.
Further, we have significant situational variables that apply. Further supporting that any claim that a majority are being carried is not a claim that can reliably be made.
Hence the request for objective criteria on what it means to be carried. I was willing to set some - enough DPS to kill rag pre-submerge is 210. So as long as they do more than 210 DPS? They are not being carried.
So I dont get the hesitation to set situational criteria that defines who is being carried and when.
For example I will be the first to say that I am often carried on Chrommagus, it is just an RNG fight of vulnerabilities for most casters.
I can’t set a hard number on “getting carried”, because it is relative. If you are doing 180 DPS on Rag, but your raid averages 160 DPS, you aren’t “getting carried”. You’re just in a raid that can’t do Rag. That’s why I tried to define it in relative terms.
I appreciate that you want objective criteria, and I appreciate your point that it is all vague (you are 100% right, it is), but I do think the vague point Flip is making - that it would be very hard to run a full raid of people doing meme-spec DPS without seeing a significant dropoff in raid quality (given similar levels of gear, dedication and skill) - is probably pretty accurate.
That is his definition of “getting carried”. Performing at level that would be significantly detrimental if it were the raid’s “norm”.
I think that is a fair definition as far as vague, hazy messageboarding goes.
I agree with you fully, Demon, that we should probably come up with a better operational definition based in math and data if we wanted to really explore the topic, but nobody is going to do that because the topic doesn’t mean anything, anyway.
And look at the context under which he joined the conversation. He basically joined in only to say that I was being carried in my raids. Not to contribute anything else other than to call me a burden. Also to insult me, and call me a “pathetic boomkin DPS”
Does that seem topic appropriate to you?
Topic was “people who raid as X spec” not “people who want to poop on people who raid X spec”
I do care about the general point he is making - that meme specs are very often dependent on the other members of the raid to allow them to significantly overperform their individual contribution. Or to even be viable at all.
There are exceptions, and a lot depends on context, of course. You are literally one of the top performers at your spec in the world. I’m sure your raid is happy to have your DPS on top of brez, innervate, FF, mark, aura, etc (Ohshiftson had the point earlier that one boomkin probably doesn’t even count as a meme because of all the other stuff they bring). But you are an outlier. And even as one of the best in the world at your class, you do the DPS of a trashcan rogue. Meme specs are just very difficult to pull off.
Oddly enough, I was originally a resto druid, but the guild asked someone to go boomkin because we had too many healers(and I volunteered, farming an entirely new BIS set). So the irony of someone telling me that I am being “carried” is not lost on me.
I dont have a problem with objectively true statements. Every single one of the specs pays a high hybrid tax, it would be unfair if they did do comparable DPS while also having all of the utility. Most Boomkins are also the type of people who dont put in the effort and are being carried.
I have a problem with being a jerk. There is ZERO need to come in and put down other people just for deciding something else at the starter screen. What was the saying? Just because you are right, doesnt make you any less of an a-hole.
I think what you are saying is vaguely, or generally, right. I don’t think it is universally right. There are specific situations in which meme spec’ers aren’t being “carried”. I get why people are offended at the generality,
But I think your point is important because one of the defences of meme spec’ing is that the content is so easy. But it wouldn’t be nearly as easy if more people meme spec’d. Most content could be cleared if 5 random (non-tank) people from each raid just afk’d the whole time, because the other 35 can carry. People can meme spec because the rest of the raid can carry.
Sure, and I dont see anyone arguing for 10 meme specs in a raid. They are arguing that they have value at all, because so often on these forums they are treated as having zero to negative value. Providing less value does not make someone a burden(aka being carried). Hence the push back on that terminology.
Again, it doesn’t matter. If you clear the content it doesn’t matter what you bring unless you want to tryhard by speed clearing so you can brag about it. Nobody is saying bring an entire raid of meme specs. In a 40-person raid a handful of people playing “suboptimal” specs isn’t going to hurt anything to any significant amount, and it’s being a jerk to insinuate that those people are doing a disservice to their guild and friends by not eating up the meta.
Feral can wear spell-hit pieces, though. Even doing so nets higher DPS than being Balance.
Balance is only better if you are too lazy or aren’t good enough to do it as Feral.
That’s all you really need to determine what is best, though.
The uptime on Faerie Fire should be the same, as Balance gains no talents to improve spell Hit and Feral can wear the same pieces. From there, a Feral’s DPS is higher, even while wearing spell hit gear, and their mitigation will be higher due to wearing leather instead of cloth.
My mistake. I thought you were insinuating that they were having fun because they weren’t min/maxing, as in min/maxing does not permit fun at the same time.
I don’t force it on anyone else, either, but there are
Posting on these forums is entirely unnecessary, yet we do. If pointing out the truth makes me a jerk, so be it. I’m not really interested in playing the nice guy to protect the feelings of Ret Paladins who can’t handle the truth.
Some people, myself included, would play Ret “for the meme” and would acknowledge its inferiority, but enjoy it nonetheless. Well, maybe not so with Ret because of how boring it is in vanilla.
Yes, I’m sure about that.
HoTs push off world buffs. I’m clearly talking about high end raiding, not your average casual Friday night Trade chat PUG.
Oh so, to clarify, I’m really trying to come at it from both ends. With what we know I wouldn’t call feral a meme spec. With that being said, there’s actually a reason for balance across the spectrum of raid types (for very different reasons) and that’s what I’m getting at.