Basically title, as well as, how big is the average Orc clan? Of course each clan is of a different size, but how drastic is the difference? Some clans are almost never heard of, and make very small impacts. Whereas others are very wildly known, and make huge impacts.
And then I guess, what clan(s) does the average orc of Orgrimmar represent? Sometimes clans are very much enphasized, such as that it is the Warsong Clan that had lumbering operations in Ashenvale, but then at the same time, most Orcs we don’t even hear what clan they hail from. They are just… Orcs.
Like which clans helped Thrall found Orgrimmar, for example?
The only modern-day clans that seem to still operate as such within the Horde framework are the Frostwolves, Warsongs and (depending upon how many sided with the Iron Horde along with Zaela) the Dragonmaws. The other clans dissolved entirely in the modern Horde or became monikers for Horde organizations that aren’t really clans any more, like the Shattered Hand.
The bulk of the clans homogenized together between the Second and Third Wars, as most of the orcs were interred at the camps without regard for their clans of origin and so no longer culturally segregated themselves along those lines, and Thrall didn’t emphasize reasserting those separations when he built the new Horde (probably just as well; we’ve learned since that many of the old clans were maniacally vicious and threats to other orcs without a shared goal of conquering Azeroth to keep them from infighting.) The three clans mentioned above remained distinct because they managed to avoid being rounded up with the rest of the orcs on Azeroth.
The Frostwolf clan is still around, living in the Alterac Mountains. It used to be that the Warsong clan still existed, but honestly it’s been so long since we’ve had word of them that I’m no longer sure. The Shattered Hand aren’t a clan anymore, but they exist as a group for all of the Horde’s rogues.
The rest of the clans pretty much disappeared with their former members abandoning their clan identities and just being part of the orcish nation in general.
Well, there wasn’t much of a divide in the Orcs that managed to make that trek to Kalimdor, by the time they made that trek. Thrall’s lineage with the Frostwolves also didn’t play much of a role in the beginning, since he was unaware of it until after his formation of the Horde. It did have some influence over his actions after tho, but less so during the initial founding as far as I’m aware.
Generally speaking, the Blackrock Clan was probably the most influential group to founding of the Horde; as were the Warsong. With Ogrim, Saurfang, Brox, and Eitrigg all being major players of the prior, and Grom being a major player of the latter. The Dragonmaw also seemed to have a bit of a presence, but I remain unclear with them since they betrayed the Faction.
Outside of that, the MU Mag’har did ultimately have a pretty big influence on Thrall’s growth once the Dark Portal reopened. The Frostwolves especially. Shame nothing ever truly came from Jorin Deadeye … Been waiting for years for him to finally be brought into the Horde in a more complete way. The last heir to the Deadeye clan, and he’s sitting it out.
We don’t really know the average. We do know what kind of range to expect though. I’ve read somewhere that the Frostwolf clan before the formation of the Horde had around 100 - 150 members and they were described as one of the smallest clans.
The Warsong were described to have been no more than 80 during the internment camp days. I got this number from a passage in Wowpedia where Grom tells the clan that they don’t kidnap children.
The Blackrocks were described to be the largest clan with them supplying the majority of the Horde’s population in Azeroth during the 1st and 2nd Wars. One could say that it was the Blackrocks vs the whole of the Eastern Kingdoms with some support from the Bleeding Hollow, Twilight’s Hammer, Dragonmaw, Stromreaver, Ogres, and Amani.
We still don’t have a number, but all of the wow books agree that the Horde significantly outnumbered the Alliance in both those wars. One could reason it’s because the Horde considered all of it’s inhabitants as combatants while the Alliance only listed its army as combatants. Even with the fel accelerated growth of the Horde’s children they were still primarily a hunter-gatherer civilization. If we take a look at our own history, population did not boom until we settled down into agrarian societies. This could mean while the Horde outnumbered the Alliance when it comes to the military, the population of the Alliance as a whole would still massively outweigh the Horde’s if we include its civilian numbers.
One could ask why the small clans were so well known. It could be because their chieftans were legendary figures. Durotan was known for his convictions and his friendships with notable Orcs like Ner’zhul and Doomhammer. Grom was known for his iron will and legendary combat ability. He could be attributed to breaking the power of the Ogres in their own hearlant. Kilrogg was known for dominating Tanaan with his ascension.
When it came to founding the New Horde it was the Frostwolves, Warsong, and the Orcs that Thrall freed. The Frostwolves rekindled the Horde’s shamanism through Thrall, and they were in Kalimdor by the time of Orgrimmar’s construction. Drek’thar was there to give Rexxar collect × items quest.
The Warsong are the most well known through the actions of Grom and releasing them from the Legion’s influence. His clan was also responsible for all of the Horde’s lumber needs. Thrall did want them to gather wood so Thrall can found a permanent home for the Orcs.
The rest are clanless. Like the posters above said, the Alliance did not care about clan affiliation. We do know that Orcs still remember the clan they hailed from. Eitrigg still mentions his Blackrock heritage during his Burning Steppes questline, but also remarks that he views himself as an Orc first. I can see this as an analogy to Americans viewing themselves as Americans first, and whatever country they or their ancestors have originated from as secondary to their identities.
See, I also got the idea that the Orc clans were often really small. Rise of the Horde and Lord of the Clans led me to believe that the Frostwolf and Warsong were just small bands. And that the Horde was only so powerful because all of the clans merged together.
And yet, then we have examples of the Warsong Clan single-handedly (though I guess they had some Darkspear help) fighting the Night Elves in Ashenvale, and killing Cenarius, and then later, as you said, basically supplying the entire Orc race with lumber.
So they can’t be that small. And yet, they can’t be big either, ya know?
I really hate the Chronicles series since it has the same outline to every single conflict involving the Orcs. The Orcs are unable to provide a meaningful challenge until a deus ex machina is given to them.
The same is in Ashenvale. Tyrande sent an army to face to Grom. The Nelfs were slaughtering the Warsong and even Cenarius joined the frey. It was not until Grom and his clan drank Mannoroth’s blood were they able to turn the tide. Once that happened the Orcs were killing Nelfs by the dozens. Grom faced Cenarius one on one and the opposite of Malfurion vs. Saurfang happened. When Cenarius was dead the woodland creatures that he brought with him retreated until the conflict was over.
That’s hardly symptomatic of Chronicle though. It’s basically a repeating thematic arc of the orcs. Ever since using fel magic allowed them to conquer a savage planet full of huge monsters that had historically kept most of the clans beaten down as underdogs, they’ve routinely leapt at any opportunity to grab the nearest superweapon or corrupting magic any time good old fashioned Blood and Thunder just isn’t getting things done. Even the Second War always had the orcs whipping up new toys to overcome the Alliance’s various battlefield advantages because just throwing orcs at the problem wasn’t cutting it. Dragons, ogre magi, death knights; all stuff they miraculously pulled out in a pinch because they kept running into things the Alliance had that the orcs themselves couldn’t counter. Then Garrosh’s superweapons were a continuation of that mentality. The orcs celebrate the idea of honorable combat, but it never really pans out. They routinely have to resort to exotic solutions every time they antagonize and then get their faces kicked in by enemies they assumed would be pushovers.
If any exist in majority it would be the Mag’har refugees. Any of the original orcs are either dead or near extinct if they haven’t died of shame over how Thrall and Saurfang have acted over the past two expansions, since the majority of their morals and integrity have been dragged across the floor and trodden into the dirt.
If grunt A beats up footman A does that mean Lordaeron falls immediately?
Obviously the Horde shouldn’t win the 2nd War, but the glaring issue is their performance in Chronicles. There was no single instance of the Horde winning a battle against the Alliance with just their martial skills alone. Battles in the 2nd War were described as the Horde losing a massive amount of warriors until they conveniently pulled a superweapon, or they just lost.
Consider the reason to why Alterac betrayed the Alliance. Chronicles states that the kingdom feared the Horde would win. However, every paragraph in the 2nd War reminds us that the Horde hasn’t won a single battle. They’ve been losing to garrisons, and the main army that’s being mustered by Turalyon can defeat the entire Horde. As the reader, I’m thinking that Alterac is just being stupid because if they’ve bunkered down then the Horde would of been wiped out at their doorstep.
The Azeroth Orcs seem to have largely fallen into an Orgrimmar Über Alles mindset. There are outliers like the Frostwolves, Warsong, Blackrock and Burning Blade clans of course but they’ve mostly become amalgamated Horde forces are largely defeated hostile third parties.
The Mag’Har on the otherhand seem to still have a pretty strong tribal identity. We see units like Laughing Skull Flayer or Shadowmoon Darkcaster posted up around Orgrimmar at least. So presumably they’re still doing their various tribal shticks.
I just want something to be done with the MU Mag’har, especially since their world is dying. Jorin, Thura, and Lantressor. The MU Mag’har, the Mok’Nathal, and the Boulderfist Ogres. Just like the Draenai, Broken, and Naaru remaining in Outlands; just like the Krokul on Argus. We really do need to start thinking about getting these people the hell off those dying worlds, so they can finally rebuild on one that might present them a future.
I am one of those that actually did like that the Horde AR was the AU Mag’har, over the MU. I think they bring a more distinct type of Orc culture into the Horde, and bring a lot of cool NPC races into the faction with them. I also think that the MU Orcs of Durotar do need an influx of new faces after all they’ve been through, and the MU Mag’har could provide that. Its just a shame that so much of that amazing Outlands content has been so neglected for so long.
Like … Baron Sablemane and the adult females in Outlands could provide the key to restoring the Black Dragonflight as a whole … yet they remain out there … neglected.
I could be wrong, but from what I recall: The Blackrock, Bleeding Hollow, Shattered Hand, and both the good and evil survivors of the pre-Cult Burning Blade made up the mass of orcs freed from the internment camps. There could be individual survivors from other (and especially minor) clans among them, but not enough to command a real presence. They, along with the Warsong and Frostwolves, were the founding clans of the New Horde, though most have chosen to identify with the Horde over their clans of birth, and that is the case for most Orgrimmar orcs.
Within the Horde overall, the Mag’har survivors of Outland and Draenor hail from the major clans that remained on both worlds, but their numbers are only enough to account for a single clan per planet. The Dark Horde (Black Tooth Grin, Dragonmaw, other Blackrock) did have defectors and some joined with the nascent New Horde like Eitrigg, and Garrosh recruited many of the survivors after it fell, including bringing in the entire Dragonmaw clan, some of which stayed loyal to the Horde after the True Horde was destroyed.
We don’t know for sure. Having a canonical range would be limiting for the writers on the one hand, and if we do get any numbers, they will inflate with time. All we know is that the major clans that have a recurring presence in the story are considerably larger than the clans we know very little about.
I would appreciate the exact line for this if you have it. I have only seen the figure of 80 in relation to the Frostwolf clan at the very end of Rise of the Horde to emphasize them being close to destruction, and if this figure is repeated with the Warsong, we might have a pattern to work off of regarding clan size.
Pretty low, but inconsistently so. The numbers will inflate every so many years to account for the sheer destruction that has been happening compared to how depleting the casualties should be between conflicts. As for the question about Teldrassil, likely a few thousand with the understanding that elves are fewer than younger races. Flicker of Hope has you try to evacuate just under a thousand citizens in Darnassus itself, and Teldrassil had multiple settlements beyond Darnassus.
