Which Class Tree do you think is the ideal/model example of success?

Community General Discussion
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I have three max level characters and have a good understanding of two other classes as well. These classes include monk, Shaman, paladin, warrior, and death knight.

It’s no secret that the monk and Shaman tree were designed by the same person. The problem is the monk tree is arguably one of the worst with only one capstone taken on a very limited basis. It forces you to take many completely dead and unused talents.

The sha.an tree is pretty good but they’ve really gutted the class and put a ton of utility we used to have as choice nodes. The capstones are not that exciting except maybe AG. The fundamental flaw with the shaman tree is all three spec trees have primordial wave and ASC/DRE. Every other class would put those in the class tree just like they’re doing for Paladin.

When I look at an ideal tree I look at death knight and warrior. They have a good mix of utility and throughput and I believe all the capstones are taken in some cases depending on spec and use. The idea that the class tree should have no throughput makes no sense when most of them were designed with a fair bit of throughput built into them. Only Shaman and monk don’t really have much throughput in their class tree.

So with the recent change to the paladin trees, I think it’s safe to say blizz are going forward with changing the ideal design of the class tree. So should we rework the monk and shaman trees next? The shaman tree does work. It just fundamentally is against all the other philosophy of tree design, but the monk tree is awful and needs a complete overhaul.

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Prot warrior through and through

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I would say fury warrior and frost death knight.

They allow you to customize your playstyle and even weapon types you use.

I wish ret allowed that type of customization, but they ate going too far with automation in the spec.

4

I would define “success” in the talent tree as flexibility rather than just power or fun (though those are important too).

I would not give the Warlock general tree a good score based on that. There are very few nodes that are a choice with the only real changes being flexing around a couple points based on utility or survivability (Shadowfury vs Drain Life nodes vs general survivability).

I would however, give the Affliction tree a very good score with every capstone seeing use somewhere and there being several pretty distinct builds, with the Dark Harvest build playing differently to the Dread Touch build which in turn plays differently to the Haunted Soul build.

Demo and Destro similarly are pretty good.

Overall I’m unimpressed by the Death Knight build, though I almost exclusively play Blood, the only real point I find myself swapping out in the general tree is AMZ vs D&D slow. In the spec tree it’s basically Purgatory vs Bonestorm.

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Sorry, but Warlock trees, especially the class tree, are one of the worst in the game. Absolutely trash capstones, most spec trees only have 1 good capstone and also force you to choose either ST or aoe, and be trash tier in the one you dont choose.

The class tree is an utter disaster. It is being partially fixed in 10.0.7, but as it stands it is one of the best examples of how not to design a tree.

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What’s the definition of a good tree to you?

None of the changes in 10.0.7 fundamentally affect how Warlocks talent trees work.

The class one will still take everything that is generically good and then shuffle talents based on utility.

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Prot and Arms warrior have really good spec trees and not just because the class is strong right now. There are a lot of micro-changes you can make in each dungeon/raid boss to optimize your position.

Elemental has problems, either your AOE is really good and your single target is bad and vise versa. I think a couple abilities need to be changed to baseline with elemental. Resto shaman is in a much better state. Can be a good raid or M+ healer based on talent choices.

I don’t like my mage this expansion unfortunately. Frost is an ice lance turret and fire mage seems to lack sustain.

Have not played much of other specs.

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Lol, some of the changes certainly do!

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The problem with the talent trees, both now and then, is they give the illusion of choice without actually giving you choices. Take warriors for example. The gutted most of the prot warriors core utility and threw it into the talent tree. Intervene, Berserk, Impending Victory, Rallying Cry, Intimidating Shout, Spell Reflect, Thunderclap, Heroic Leap, Storm Bolt, Shattering Throw, Avatar, Dragon Roar, Revenge, Demoralizing Shout, Last Stand, Challenging/Disrupting Shout, Shield Wall, Shield Charge.

They basically said: Here’s a list of abilities you used to have. Here is a maze where you can pick the ones you want back, but only if you follow the right path and have enough points. Oh, and your only 2 major defensive cooldowns are thrown in the pot too. Good luck!

Talent trees used to give us buffs to our core abilities, and allow us to experiment with builds. Do we go all the way to the capstone, or do we spend half our points in other trees for a potential DPS boost? Capstone abilities used to be powerful (sticking with the warrior theme), bladestorm for arms, two handed weapon dual wielding for fury, and shockwave for prot - and in my experience so far, All the classes I have played so far this expansion have capstones that have fallen flat. They tried to improve druids in 10.0.0.5 and failed to listen to the community’s feedback and bug reports and released a talent tree that was sub par, and straight up didn’t work. When I say “didn’t work”, I mean literally. An ability that was supposed to deal damage to mobs and heal you, did damage to you and healed mobs instead, and the new capstone ability only worked some of the time.

This has left some classes/specs so far behind the “meta” that they are virtually unplayable. I feel bad for any class that is getting a revamp in 10.0.0.7 and beyond (looking at you Paladins).

There are no new abilities in DF for most classes. Max level capstones historically gave players new abilities for their classes. Shadowlands kind of changed this with the inclusion of covenant abilities, but with Dragonflight we got nothing, and this just feels bad.

10

I think the outlaw/rogue class trees are pretty well done. There’s some room for movement and a couple viable build paths. One of the talents you’re forced to take pretty deep doesn’t work, but aside from that I like it.

11

Warrior trees. They have very few 2 point nodes and no 3 point nodes. They also have more nodes (options) then almost any other class. 49 class nodes I think? And for Arms it’s like 42 nodes or something? Hunter by comparison is like 40 & 36 with many 2 point nodes and some 3 point nodes (ew).

The end result, warrior has so many choices for minor or major gameplay changes. Sure there is a best build for a content type, that’s always the case, but you loose very little going with another option if you like it more. You can give up 1-2% theoretical “max DPS” to take a few talents you prefer instead. That’s pretty good.

As well, several different end game build options (bleeds, spear, execute, etc.). Even a viable build without Bladestorm! That’s pretty wild.

Not saying the class is perfect, but the trees are great.

Sham is okay. I think Hunter and Mage are pretty bad. That’s all I’ve played.

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There will always be an optimal path though. Technically if you wanted to do what’s mathematically best, you’ve never had a choice in anything. There is always a best option.

13

Frost Death Knights sweating bullets over Fatal Fixation somehow breaking Killing Machine entirely.

Personally, I don’t think Frost Death Knight is the ideal class tree. If you want to use Remorseless Winter, it is essential to take every single talent in the Class Tree related to it, with currently some (but not all) being required to be taken if you want to go down the Breath of Sindragosa side of the tree. This will change in 10.0.7, which is nice, but it’s good to mention.

We have an ability that, despite getting buffed in 10.0.7, is straight up useless. Currently, Frostscythe is an AoE Rune Spending ability with a target cap of 5 and the ability to spend Killing Machine. To make it even match Obliterate’s damage when it is using Death and Decay Cleave and Killing Machine on two targets, Frostscythe must hit 8-10 targets. That’s a problem, and 10.0.7 only makes the problem worse as Obliterate’s Death and Decay cleave is getting buffed to 3 targets. This means Froatscythe, even with its measly damage buff, will likely require the same number or even more targets to match Obliterate’s damage, and it’s capped at 5. Good luck ever using it.

Frost Strike, while essential to our kit, does not feel good to press for one reason: Shattering Blades. This talent sacrifices our Razorice procs (which buff our Frost Damage as a whole) to double a single Frost Strike hit. Without Shattering Strikes, the only points to Frost Strike are to uphold buffs, grant extra runes, and proc Killing Machine. It’s not even used for its damage. 10.0.7 attempts to make it better with a minor damage buff… and a Runic Power cost increase. The cost increase reduces the chance at Runic Power overflow like we currently have, but also reduces the number of times Frost Strike can be used not just consecutively, but overall. This means that, while Frost Strike got a slight damage buff, there are less chances to use its utility. While currently Killing Machine has a chance to overflow from overlapping procs such as Auto Attacks and Frost Strike crits, Fatal Fixation fixes that. The chance for a Rune to be given may be based off of 2% for every Runic Power spent, but a 50% chance going up to 60% isn’t as worth it as an extra 50% chance to proc a rune. And keeping up buffs… That one’s fine, 10 seconds is plenty of time to get another Frost Strike for upkeep.

For some, the talent Bonegrinder still doesn’t seem to be working. While I can’t tell if it’s working or not, it’s good to mention and perhaps better to mention that not knowing when it’s procced when it’s a 20% Frost Damage buff that we had to sacrifice the crit in the talent for is a problem that could be remedied by a quick popup akin to Empower Rune Weapon.

Tl;Dr Frostscythe is still a dead talent, Frost Strike is too reliant on Shattering Blades and can’t be given any damage because of it, and supposedly Bonegrinder still doesn’t work for some reason.

14

There are multiple builds for enhancement shamans, neither is optimal. Situational yes, but not optimal.
A prime example for choice would be resto druids. You can go kitty build and choose kitty talents, or you can go balance build and choose moonkin talents. Same difference - depends on your preference comfort level for DPSing as a healer. This is choice.

What I mean by “Illusion of choice” is taking away every class’ interrupt (or insert necessary ability like last stand for warriors) and throwing it in their talent tree. Why is interrupt a talented ability? Like seriously, explain that to me. Why is this not baseline?

15

I feel like the DH Havoc tree is pretty nice.

Considering there are multiple builds and they are all pretty close performance wise while also having enough variation to feel different than the others.

Momentum build. (left side)
Glaive tempest build. (middle)
Throw Glaive build. (Right side)

16

My Arms Warrior has almost no flexibility with builds, but that is fine in that I don’t have to mold my playstyle for different encounters. On the other hand, my Devastation Evoker has a lot of flexibility with builds which keeps the gameplay fresh from encounter to encounter.

17

I think that the resto-druid healing tree is great. There are plenty of choices and ways to play that are fun to do. If you find yourself with a weak tank (I’m sorry) you can shift a bunch of points to get big healing on the poor guy.

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I am strictly talking class trees not spec trees.