Wheres the social aspect anti rdfers talk about

[Deunan-atiesh]

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

but these other people jsut say that it had a positive effect, which they have no evidence of.

in this entire RDF debate nobody has anything to prove a negative or a positive of RDF beyond anecdotes, which is one reason why I think this issue devolves so quickly. People say they had X experience then others come to either debunk with their own anecdotes or support with the same. When in reality there is no evidence to it being a net positive or negative other than player feelings which wildly vary.

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

It is very likely that Cataclysm lauch is the actual peak of wow subscribers

That could be true, based on the graph I would think the peak was prior to cata prepatch in wrath. Though I am not a master of reading graphs so I could be inferring incorrect information. Wrath was generally accepted as a high point for the game in general.

[Drinknblink-benediction]

@Deunan-atiesh

in this entire RDF debate nobody has anything to prove a negative or a positive of RDF beyond anecdotes, which is one reason why I think this issue devolves so quickly. People say they had X experience then others come to either debunk with their own anecdotes or support with the same. When in reality there is no evidence to it being a net positive or negative other than player feelings which wildly vary.

WHich is why i try and state fact only.

And factually speaking RDF increases dungeon participation at all levels and thats all that matters.

[Jeynar-mannoroth]

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

We are progressing from that original game into another where changes are made. This was also done in TBC. So it is just a cop out to say this.

And that’s when it stops being classic and becomes reforged instead.

This actually matters.

[Warchilde-atiesh]

@Deunan-atiesh

That could be true, based on the graph

base it on the graph all you want, brian birmingham flat out said “cata was the beginning of the decline of popularity for world of warcraft.” period, end of statement.

[Deunan-atiesh]

Read my entire paragraph and tone down your vitriol.

[Warchilde-atiesh]

no vitriol, deunan. was just saying that brian was heard to say that as well as it being printed in an article. the point there being that we do have a shred of evidence that it was not rdf that killed wow.

sorry if that came across as abruptly rude, wasnt intended that way.

[Deunan-atiesh]

@Warchilde-atiesh

sorry if that came across as abruptly rude

No worries, appreciate the appology, text is a fickle medium.

@Warchilde-atiesh

brian was heard to say that as well as it being printed in an article.

I believe I saw this article, and I do agree that the cataclysm probably lost the game more subs than RDF did.

[Miregrim-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

nothing better to do

I can spend 10 to 20 minutes a day helping to keep the rdf threads on the front page. Anyone who trusts blizzard at their word hasn’t been paying attention to how many times they changed their mind over the years.

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

There being growth in the first few weeks where as all that growth is lost right after and still kept at that low for months all the way till ICC, is what i am pointing out

Every link I’ve found on line disagrees with your graph. I wonder how long it took you to find one out of dozens that agrees with your view.

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

then cata came and all left

That’s nonsense. Even your graph shows that Cata ended with over 10 million subs. Losing 2 million subs may seem like a lot but every other MMO at the time would have been ecstatic if they had even been able to reach 10 million subs.

[Scarletpimp-arugal]

Blizzard can’t even deliver a buff without royally stuffing it up - what chance do you think they have with delivering a useful RFD system?

This game is a minimum viable product release of WoTLKC.

[Misanthra-old-blanchy]

See the issue there is cata is its chock full of things to make that statement seem true. so what killed wow?

Some hated the world redo.

Some hated the hard dungeons.

some hated lfr.

Some hated the entire story.

I will hit on that last one. When you jsut mess up a story so bad, people will leave. See retail. See used to be tourists like me who stay classic side full time now lol. DF lost me. It was strike 3. Literally…BFA, SL, DF 3 strikes and its an out.

When not doing my wrath things. I’d rather play era HC than df lol. RPG’s with crap story kills some players attendance. Dying at level 19, actually deleting the char to the rules and starting up next char…is better than DF story. It should not be this way. But for some…it is lol.

[Bladebilliam-westfall]

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

All of this can be done while looking for a group as well too.

I pointed out the flaws in that can-barely-be-called-an-idea in another thread, so I’m not going to bother repeating myself here.

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

So not much of a sink it would be.

Cool, then you’re not relevant to the concept in the first place.

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

childen

It’s generally better not to insult people when you can’t spell the word right in the first place; that being said, it’s a seemingly-futile attempt to actually keep the game alive since the idiotic nonsense coming from your side is doing the opposite.

On another note, I really wish I could swear here.

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

if you cant be bothered using time to level now you arent gonna use time to level with RDF.

The Gnome Mage alt I was working on stopped dead because the chances of finding an SM Lib (for Icefury and Illusionary Rod rolls) group on Westfall are essentially zero, and since my current guild and I have different play times, getting help isn’t really going to happen. Dungeon Finder would solve that in maybe half an hour instead of spending potentially multiple hours hoping someone logs on that I can ask to help out, but keep that head located somewhere around your stomach.

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

wotlk was on a decline before cata

If Blizz allowed external links, this would be hilariously easy to debunk, since the peak of WoW subs overall was at the end of Wrath and a little into Cata.

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

you dont touch grass

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

i have 1.6m gold

Pot? Kettle here.

@Zlozx-mankrik

I do not do Heroics or Heroic Plus unless a guildie needs something

Cool, then don’t use the feature while the rest of us use it.

@Warchilde-atiesh

going back to private servers

I mean, if you want Cata, Whitemane exists and does things…like be extremely buggy but patched frequently.

@Jeynar-mannoroth

You’re confusing the lines connecting the data points with meaning anything at all.

Or it’s a case of “THIS graph proves my point regardless of how accurate it may or may not be!”

@Miregrim-bloodsail-buccaneers

Anyone who trusts blizzard at their word hasn’t been paying attention to how many times they changed their mind over the years.

…Or all that cough news cough last year about the kind of workplace it is.

[Megarune-frostwolf]

I’ve read through Your guys Debate but I do want to point out a couple of things technically You are correct Is there actually evidence subscribers wnt up or Down wen rfd Came out ?

Well no However I can tell you this From a player perspective I saw a lot more people do dungeons When it did secondly Did subscribers go up wen cata or mop Came out.

Well no Now Was this because of rfd It’s possible If it’s not very likely though considering everything else Is that happened during cata Launch.

1 ter 11 was a mess Buggy bosses Glitches Copying 25 man Difficulty on to 10.

2 Classes Some people liked it some people hated it

3 World ravehamp Same thing with classes a lot of people liked it a lot of people hated it.

4 Heroics were too hard for lfd Groups at the time.

5 There is a huge difficulty spike over all So what it took to become a raider in cara Was a lot harder than what it took in wrath so You really couldn’t be a casual raider anymore.

6 It was also the first expansion that required you to have addons To play your class effectively.

7 Death wing was a very Disappointing fight

8 There was no communication Or very delayed communication on bug fixes and issues and And there was a very long time period between fixes and bug issues.

9 It was a very long time period in between raid tears

10 Archaeology sucked cool idea very boring implementation

11 The world was changing And so is the player base 2004 - 2010 That’s seven years People change people go to college people get married they have families.

People’s lives change that is an aspect that a lot of people don’t look at either I mean think about it if you start playing wow wen your 19 you wer 27 wen cata Came out.

Those were the reasons I remember People not liking cata And as far as story goes It was okay And honestly you could probably copy.

Most of those two mop Now whether good things and those expansions. Yes but i’m saying people remember the bad way more than they remember the good.

So rfd Most likely was not the reason why people left those expansions there was a whole other list of other reasons.

[Jeynar-mannoroth]

@Misanthra-old-blanchy

so what killed wow?

I think it was Blizzard deciding that they didn’t like the game they’d built so they tried to force the playerbase to play an entirely new vision.

“Harder” heroics causing Ghostcrawler to whine that “players didn’t rise to the occasion”, stupid talent changes, stupid spec changes, all of this point to that.

And that’s kind of the problem with WotLKC as well. They’re still trying to force their vision on the players without asking the players.

[Warchilde-atiesh]

the only claim im making is that the lead dev on wrath classic at its launch was a guy who its been proven to have said “cata is what killed the popularity of world of warcraft”. thats it, i dont know in particular what killed it, i was too busy with my 300+ guild members and running dungeons with rdf. i never used lfr but i did LOVE the world redo, after all that time playing in the original world, i liked the shatter the world and revamp it.

[Doingitlive-westfall]

Let’s get RDF in please. By this point in the game if you we’re going to make friends with the people on your server you would have done so already.

[Doingitlive-westfall]

I had a blast with Cata as well. Redoing the zones made me want to go back and relevel a toon and all the toons felt really good to level so I wanted to keep leveling. Some of the most fun I’ve ever had was dungeon grinding in RDF with a brand new warrior.

[Usforumboi-nazjatar]

Overall i stopped wasting my time debating the other people, i have the evidence to back up every single of the claims i make and the opposition just makes anecdotes for their arguments.

This was so stupidly outdrawn i stopped caring at all, there are no evidence for RDF being good for the game like they say, there certainly is a lot of evidence for wotlk both losing and stagnating in player growth, which never happened before. So overall i dont have to do anymore arguing.

[Jeynar-mannoroth]

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

there are no evidence for RDF being good for the game like they say, there certainly is a lot of evidence for wotlk both losing and stagnating in player growth, which never happened before.

Without a singular hint of self awareness too.

[Drinknblink-benediction]

You gave 0 evidence.

1 thing is for certain that RDF increase dungeon participation at all levels by a significant amount.

That’s literally all that matters.

[Miregrim-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Usforumboi-nazjatar

there are no evidence for RDF being good for the game like they say, there certainly is a lot of evidence for wotlk both losing and stagnating in player growth

There is no evidence at all about rdf because only blizzard has the data and they don’t release it. Did the number of dungeons completed increase after rdf was added? Blizzard knows but won’t tell us. But most people acknowledge that more players did more dungeons and leveled more alts after it was added.

Of the only evidence we have, official sub numbers for wrath released by blizzard, Wrath stagnated for 13 months with no rdf and rose by 500 thousand subs in the year following rdf being added. Clearly there was something about wrath that caused subs to stagnant and it wasn’t rdf being added.