At the moment, there is no tangible incentive to actually slowly progressing the raid with 20 people (which its supposedly tuned for). The guilds who’ve already cleared 8/8 20M arent even running it on that level anymore and opting to zerg it with 35+.
At the moment, the incentive to just zerg it with 50-100% more than the intended 20 people is benefiting raids and guilds with the below
-More loot because you’re killing more bosses
-More Ashbringer lightforge ingots every week
-Less overall raid time spent wiping and able to kill more bosses for those guilds that are time limited, allowing more options to go back and clear Naxx for any potential upgrades/atiesh
The guild and raid team im currently in has lost players every week because they don’t like the slower progression and would rather join raids that are bringing 30+ people. There’s also immense pressure from players to just follow suit and invite 10 more pugs to our weekly roster just so we can get more ashbringer lightforge pieces. So my question is what’s even the point of tuning at this level for supposedly 20m raid teams, when the majority are just opting to bring more players to bypass difficulties and be more time efficient?
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0 point at all to 20man, u will get less loot overall
you can hoard more loot to yourself if you do it with 20.
even better if you do it with 19.
but this is an MMO so bringing more is better, more easy and everything.
Aggrend already said they’re going to adjust enrage timers on some of the later bosses. Hopefully this includes the dragon and mason because those still felt like they had super tight enrages.
having to split 4 pieces of loot with 35+ players isn’t fun
3 Likes
and there’s your incentive not to bring more and to get so good that you can do it with 20, then 19…18… fewer and fewer as you become a supersoldier!
Yeah man. Just kick someone from ur guild so u can give more loot to your friends. Good take XD
so allowing up to 40 players per raid is a good thing now?
No, but to say the reward is more loot by simply kicking people out of ur raid team is silly. There is no reason to run 20 atm the raid is absurdly overtuned for it. How would you feel if you joined a guild and after 4 weeks of prog they told you they’re going to kick you because ur potentially going to be taking loot from the people they like more than you. That’s seems kinda horrible.
Dragon is not tight. Mason is though, but the tight enrage is really the only fight difficulty. Take that away and boss is a joke.
you statement is correct. There is no tangible benefit to it unless you make it to a certain threshold in progression. but
if you are making it to 5/8 there’s a tangible benefit on a per person metric in terms of loot. As in youre more likely to get a piece of loot even though less loot drops.
the larger issue seems to be time investment as it usually a multi night clear even when its clearable.
honestly i absolutely love the system they put in place and i wish it was the same in retail…
2 Likes
In fact, this is 40 people raid. Yes, blizzard said that it is “tuned” to 20 people. But in fact it is 40ppl because 40ppl can enter it. It is same as blizzard release classic molten core in wow classic fresh, say “we tuned it to 20 people”, but in fact don’t do any changes. Only words in blue post “we tuned it to 20 people”. Yes, classic molten core is absolutely sure doable with 20 people (and, i think, it is easier to do with 20 people then sod scarlet enclave), but everyone is going there as 40 people because it is just much faster (not just *2 faster because *2 dps, but much more, because it prevents many possible wipes).
So same with scarlet enclave, it’s not important that blizzard write “we tuned it for 20 people” (they can write anything, even “we tuned it for 10 people”), but it doesn’t change anything, 40 people can enter the raid and make the raid easier, so raid is 40 people.
1 Like
Where’s the incentive to progress as 20m in SE?
Here’s why 20-man progression has benefits:
- Higher Individual Loot Chances
- Fewer players = less loot competition, meaning higher chances to acquire key gear upgrades.
- In larger raids (30-40 players), loot is spread too thin, slowing individual progression.
- Stronger Group Cohesion & Execution
- Smaller raids allow for tighter coordination and better communication.
- Fewer people failing mechanics reduces unnecessary wipes and improves overall efficiency.
- More Structured Progression
- Consistent team synergy leads to stronger long-term progression, rather than relying on rotating rosters of random pugs.
- Optimized Strategy Development
- A stable core roster helps refine mechanics and minimize chaos compared to larger groups.
- Prestige & Challenge
- Clearing the raid in a 20-man format showcases true skill, making kills more rewarding.
- Later on, when nerfs hit, smaller teams will already be ahead, securing early farm advantages.
The short-term appeal of larger raids is loot volume, but the long-term benefits of a solid 20-man team include better progression, higher individual rewards, and more polished execution.
They said “raids are intended to be done with 20 players” not “tuned for 20” go re read the p5 flex raid update.
I suspect the intention is for clearing Scarlet Enclave with 20 folks is the endgame goal, not really a reasonable expectation for a new raid launching. I can’t speak to it myself, as it sounds like it’s maybe a bit too difficult a jump up from Naxx, so it’s probably good they’re doing some smaller nerds here and there.
As someone pretty new to SoD, I personally like the idea of having a raid I truly need to aspire to. I feel like I’ve been blitzing through all of the pre-Naxx raids since the moment I hit 60, which has been fun but probably a bit too fast. I remember raiding back in Vanilla, where being able to clear MC at all was considered a major achievement, and then eventually being able to clear it in a night, and then eventually cleared fast enough to leave time to hit Onyxia in the same evening.
People have obviously been gearing up the whole time, so I’m definitely on the receiving end of being carried by folks who put in more work early on. For me, I’m excited to be able to have something worth investing time into again, and I would honestly be more disappointed if it was something I was able to roll through without really having to develop and push my skills to the limit.
I suppose my take would probably be, if enough people aren’t clearing SE after a month or two, I would personally rather see some “secret” hard-mode style bosses added to older content or locations, letting players bridge that gap by attaining other, better loot, rather than just nerfing the raid until everyone is able to clear it casually.
Just my two cents, though.
It is just words. They can say anything, they can say “classic molten core intended to do with 20 people”, so if they say this everyone on classic fresh will go to MC with 20 ppl? Dont think so. The reality is not just words or bluepost, the reality is game that allows you to do raid with up to 40 ppl and not punishing you for it.
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It doesn’t matter, it’s still too difficult so people are just going to bring more.
Parse flex is another benefit no?
Even after the nerfs, proabably 80%+ of groups bringing 21-40 players will not make it past council still. For 20 man, I would be shocked if more than 5% clear council this reset.
Interested to see if blizz makes additional nerfs or if the design choice is make players go 5/8 for 3-4 lockouts before they are finally geared enough to full clear.