When will we get a Horde story?

The reason I’m clipping your post like this will (hopefully, maybe) make sense as I go on, so let me dive right into it.

With Alleria got her voidy-ness in her Legion re-debut with a specific purpose in mind (or rather, a couple purposes).

  • To give void elves a starter hero.
  • To show how the thousand year of timey-whimey shenanigans affected her, like with Turalyon going from “big Light paladin” to “ultra-big Light paladin”

It’s not to give the Alliance a void character; she did very little in BfA, the very next expansion, when we dealt with the void via N’zoth. Other than in some twisted dream-realm-thing, she only showed up in the background (I think? I didn’t do Alliance BfA stuff).

Alleria was already a character they wanted to bring back, along with Turalyon (so people would stop asking where they are), but they clearly didn’t have a plan for her beyond “make sorta-void elf, give superpower so she isn’t lesser than husband.”

That it also made her a perfect ride-along character in TWW wasn’t planned from day one; it’s just that when they were looking for someone to be the ride-along, Alleria was serendipitously the perfect candidate to use.

So this was less a case of developing Alliance lore for the future (if it was that, again, BfA was right there and she was notably missing) and more “oh, we have someone for that!!”

But the Alliance does benefit from that kind of serendipity more than the Horde. And that’s because the Alliance has more characters left from the past, a broader roster to pull from. And because that roster has a broader history as well, they have more fodder for stories.

The Horde roster of interesting characters is pretty damn shallow now, due to the deaths and the heel-turns (and of course, the heel-turns that lead to death). This is a big part of the issue of the Horde having so little lore left.

Void Alleria might be relatively new (although, is 7-8 years really still new?), but Alleria herself is an RTS character. She is hardly new, and with long histories come more story opportunities. In fact, the Alliance’s RTS-era roster is largely intact.

We have Thrall and a couple others from WC III. We have one or two from earlier eras, but they’re so old and crippled at this point that stories focused on them are pretty difficult to come by.

That’s why I believe the reason we get so little focus on the Horde is because there’s so little lore left worthy of even a major patch, let alone an expansion. As an example, since BfA ended the first major patch to really focus on a Horde race involves the race with the highest percentage of neutral members. And the focus is, ultimately, on killing yet another (former) Horde character. Because that’s the most they can come up with.

And in the end, it’s a whole lot easier to just tell stories using the faction that has more assets you can pull from (characters, storylines, etc) than creating assets from scratch for the other guys.

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Blizzard has removed every old Horde character and replaced them with Who?s no one actually cares about. The Horde is now just a feasty few and ti shows. Which is also the reason they don’t play ana ctive role in the story anymore. Like if you asked who is the current leader of every race minus Thrall most fans will not have a good answer for it. On the same time, no one over at the alliance ever perma dies. Their original leadrs are still there. Magni returned to normal, Jaina switched from Theramore to Kul Tiras, Anduin returned to his place like in vanilla, Gelbin, Magni and Genn are also alive and whenever we need cosmic stuff they dig up Tyrande and Malfurion. Shadowlands was our last chance of any representation and they failed. Now we get a single goblin patch and we know it will be mostley about the neutral cartel leaders. the single horde goblin(gallywix) is about to die because Blizzard has no other ideas then using our former folks as raid bosses.

I am certain dear OP the Horde will not get any story any time soon.

They just throw in alliance leaders in as questgivers and expect the Horde players/fans to roll with it and shut up.

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Sigh… not to give Erevien more fuel to his fire, but this is something people I have come across over the recent years, has express in the past that they dislike A LOT on both side that played other faction games and I do think this or at least that what they said to be one of the reasons, before their subs ended, is what has made a few of them that I use to play stop playing and return to those games.

Alynsa also makes actually really valid point and I dare say she is very spot on… In a time restricted dev cycle “reusing existing assets” is almost always the primary way to go on unless the lead or boss says otherwise. Creating new access should be always consider as a last reassort and Team Leads always will ask you it you check and there is nothing you can’t just repaint as new! (and this new asset should also be created to be reuse specially if its armor or sprite skeletons be it just NPC or for PC, example if they ever make a 5 headed Dragon for my beloved Chromatus or Hydra/Chimera beast for a character, Class, Demon Summon or Monster, that should be something that can be reskin a LOT in the future, either for a new type of Void Horror or Mutant etc)
I would say in the gaming industry the re-use of assets is almost an art, AI being the the pinnacle of such a practice and so being implemented in the more modern tools to mass produce content under supervision of in most cases Art Devs in charge of environments, existing Visual assets or updating lots of different textures at onces.

So comparing that with story like Alynsa said it’s just easier to add to existing character with such rich backgrounds than to try to built up some random NPC in one expansion or too. Unless you actually get lucky and hit it good with the players with characters like Bwonsamdi and Sire D… thanks to the voice actor performance I might add! :star_struck:

I know it sounds lazy a hell, but if done correctly its something most players would not even notice, specially in newer games… but seeing how old WoW is that span over at least 3 generations or more, well, lets just say people start to see the cracks on the old painting jobs if the creator is not updating or refreshing it and add some new flair or flavor to it, even more in a story setting with factions IMO! :grimacing:

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The alliance has more legacy characters then the Horde does which is why Blizzard keeps using them and then expect Horde fans to just accept it despite those leaders having a past of trying to kill as many Orcs as possible.

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I think you’ve really hit the nail on the head here. The Horde also suffered the most from the writing change and the infighting at blizzard. Looking back that Horde arc in MOP was pretty successful and satisfying. The problem started when they killed Vol’jin before he could do anything because they killed Varian but with the pinky promise that Sylvanas’s arc will be really dope; but then afrisabi took over and we know what happend. This so close to the MOP civil war gut the Horde roster.

The other issue we have is that Blizzard doesn’t have the space to lay the groundwork the Horde needs to recover narratively. Orcish, Troll and Forsaken societies need rebuilt from the ground up. That requires a world revamp to give it the care and time it needs which is a tall order.

The good news is I’m optimistic that we are on the right track. Gazlowe is going to get some great development in this upcoming patch. His short story, and inclusion in the campaign were good signs. Heartlands was fantastic in helping set the groundwork with Geya’rah. I also suspect we may get a N.EK revamp since they are going to fit Quel’thalas into the main ek server. This would explain why they would settle the Mag’har in Arathi rather than in Kalimdor.

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Anything to bring my beloved back.

:stuck_out_tongue:

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Really, it is so mind-bogglingly bad what they did to the Horde that it should be a case study on how not to handle your franchise and legacy characters.

I mean, no one was there to say hey, we’ve been setting Vol’jin up since Cata for some pretty cool stuff. He’s an up-and-coming character, and we’re about to do a troll-themed expansion. He has to stay alive.

No one was there to say that Sylvanas is a background character. She is not a main character. Her edginess comes from her shadowy aesthetic. She will completely fall apart if we place her in the spotlight.

Or, hey, Sylvanas is dedicated to preserving the Forsaken. She had some great lines in Legion about how they mean everything to her. Its really her one redeeming character trait. It would be a really bad move to retcon all of that and say she was just lying the whole time and using them to save herself. That would pretty much ruin what players love about the character, not to mention destroy the Forsaken’s racial identity. They and Sylvanas are intrinsically linked. You can’t really separate them without destroying both.

Or, hey, we have these cultures with really differing beliefs on magic and the afterlives. It would really destroy this worldbuilding to say that all of their afterlives are essentially made up and that their views on magic are essentially primitive interpretations of the magics that humans and elves have been practicing for centuries. It would be way better for worldbuilding if we didn’t try to overexplain our fantasy universe (that is based on shallow tropes) and link everyone’s magic to just being misinterpretations of elven magics.

I mean, there was no one at Blizz to say any of this?

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From what we’ve gathered, there was. We know there was massive infighting on the cdev team over the issue. We know from a podcast that the last thing Metzin worked on was early concepting for the BFA launch trailer but no story beats were known by then. The lead then changed to Afrisabi who held a lot of grudges from the Cata/MOP storylines.

It was his decision to villain bat Sylvie and burn the tree. We know from Jason Scriers book that it led to a revolt on the team but he put down a my way or the highway and to trust him. It was around this time that Bobby Kotick was being warned that BFA and SL were not good and would need to be redone story wise. Afrisabi and his ilk pushed through his storyline then promptly gets fired for sexual harassment. But by this time BFA and SL were locked in, Danuser then takes over.

Upper management finally decides enough is enough and intervenes, the SL story is aborted and management dictates that sylv must live and be semi redeemed. The jailer is radically changed and the team is tasked with trying to salvage the situation. Danuser creates Dragon flight as his baby and the team try’s to walk back some of the damage of the WOT storyline and other remnants of BFA to varying success. He then quits over the return to office. Blizz then lays off much of Cdev leadership and brings back Metzin. By this time TWW is already under development so the storyline is adjusted the best they can for the Worldsoul saga. you can see the remnants of this with how old the buildings in hallowfall look even though the Arathi have only been there for ~20 years, all the points of interest, crafting locations items to help moving around the city of threads even though we just fly over everything ect. it feels like there was a massive change in TWW, which there was.

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SL story wasn’t aborted. Odyn confirmed the First Ones and all that are very much real.

You know that’s not what i meant. It was aborted the way WOD was. Sylv was supposed to die, no split soul, no maw penance, no random NPC being named arbiter. No Baine sitting around Oribos doing nothing. All resulting from the lead changing and upper management aborting the storyline. Which i don’t blame them for doing.

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Saving Sylvanas from being killed was the right call really. Afrasiabi had no vision and was on a weird hate trip against her. So Blizzard cut off his vision with glee.

Except they didn’t really “save” her. Ranger-General Sylvanas is a different person.

After Teldrasil, Sylvanas had been mostly destroyed as a character. instead of letting her die and be replaced, they just remade her. Might be better this way. Mostly because if they let her die, I have strong doubts they would have replaced her. They haven’t replaced much of anyone else.

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nobody wants her to be replaced. blizzard knows the desolate council sucks.

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But she was replaced. That’s my point. Banshee Queen Sylvanas has been replaced with Ranger-General Sylvanas. They just did it with explicitly doing it. My guess is that this was motivated by the hope that it woldn’t alienate her fans as much as just killing her off.

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The problem is the leadership replacements are always bad. You will not find a single non lore fan who can actually tell who are the actual leaders at the moment. The Horde council is really just a group of self appointed congressmen.

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And she’s not even that. She’s some weird, new character that is a hodge-podge of Ranger-General Sylvanas and Banshee-Queen Sylvanas.

Banshee-General?
Ranger-Queen?

Banger-Queeneral?

I vote Banger-Queeneral Sylvanas.

Like Allawyn said, the Sylvanas we knew is absolutely replaced. The body is the same, but the person in the meatsuit is very different and entirely unknown.

She could return as “Sylvanas, but less evil” sure.

Or she could return as something entirely different (but also less evil).

Because to Blizzard, the important thing is they can put her on merch and nobody can tell the difference because physically she’s the same.

Unless we get a talking Sylvanas body pillow. Then it might be different.

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This part right here.

They have the foundations of rebuilding the Azerothian Orcs again thanks to the Orc Heritage questline and bringing the WoD Mag’har into Azeroth. They just need to keep carrying that ball to the finish line.

There’s no reason for the Quiet Council not to start efforts of rebuilding the ruins of Lorderan into an actual functional city again instead of just sticking solely to the Undercity. Bringing Caelia into the fold was the literal perfect narrative excuse to finally do this. Though really it should have been done (or at least started) in Wrath after Varimathras and Putress had their little unsuccessful coup and took the city over while everyone was distracted at the Wrathgate.

The Echo Isles were reclaimed ages ago, why is there not an actual proper full troll settlement there yet? Even more so now that the Zandalari are on board. Why is Echo Isles not a full on mini Dazar’alor by now.

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A realized Echo Isles would be amazing. I pray that they remain true to Darkspear aesthetics. It seems since BfA all anyone cares about are Zandalari trolls.

It truly is sad how little effort Blizzard has put towards managing their living, breathing world. They seemed to bank solely on the endgamers who only care about numbers and getting gear so they can play the same dungeons over and over to get more gear to play the same dungeons over and over to get more gear to…

They forgot that a huge reason people play WoW is for the world of Warcraft. We love Azeroth. We love the factions and the races and the places and yes, the characters. Blizz forgot that these things are important and crucial to maintaining a player base that cares. If Blizz doesn’t care about their world and lore, then why would we care? This game is supposed to be an RPG. It needs worldbuilding.

Gilneans just got a sad excuse of an ending, but at least they got an ending (this is a case where I’d rather there still not be one, but nonetheless)

Gnome players are still in stasis since Cata. There’s no development on Gnomeregan. Its been 20 years and we still haven’t seen it.

I know Midnight is supposed to be the start of revamping the old world, allegedly. We’re starting with the races that make up 90% of the playerbase, and that’s fine I guess. I hope that they really put in the effort for the lesser races.

And if they ever do pandaren heritage… I hope they knock it out of the park.

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My brain somehow imposed Urinal-Queen Sylvanas onto this, and I can’t unsee it. Urinal-Queen Sylvanas! She’s muh queen.

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She did flush herself down the maw.

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