When did wow become primarily about competitive gameplay?

I already explained why it was better.

Maybe read it again lol

Yeah, dude.

Because Blizzard designing content that’s innately competitive is completely different from Blizzard designing content that people just so happen to be competitive about. Do I really need to spell that out for you?

If you actually think raids or dungeons were any semblance of competitive in the way they currently are today, you’re out of your mind lol

Are you actually this dense or is this just some sort of willful ignorance?

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How exactly do you propose they do that?

I mean.

Leveling? That’s your issue?

The thing they moved away from as the focus in TBC?

A slow and tedious leveling process is not returning. I find that worse in every way possible. And it’s probably why it was ditched as a design gameplay focus immediately.

Basically like in every MMO ever.

While I agree this is true, almost all the casual content they add is beyond boring, like the sleeperbloom that is such awful video game content even the tree falls asleep during it.

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I didn’t ask for this lol

It’s impressive how hard you work to miss the point

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People literally were staying up for 23+ hours to grind for Grand Marshal and High Warlord, to the point that people like my brother would get his roommate to play for him during the day and he would play during the night.

AQ was a massive race to the finish, designed specifically to make people compete for a reward.

Most of the culmination points for the story ended up at either a dungeon or a raid unless it was some random subset of side-quests, which frankly the side-quest stories are actually really good in retail.

Competitive elements have always existed. What the original WoW developers did is take away some of the harder elements from EQ (corpse looting other players, farming lore-books for languages, etc) and made the game more focused on a subset of things so the game was more approachable.
The developers themselves were in a hardcore raiding guild in EQ, so they wanted to retain a lot of that.

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And I never said they didn’t, but the competitive elements weren’t the underlying function informing the rest of the game’s design.

Nor were the non-competitive elements neglected.

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That’s the thing about WoW being an MMORPG, the game is what you make it out to be.

It was always competitive, it just wasn’t always a forefront. Thats had less to with Blizz and more to do with technology.

Blizz made a game with tons of different activities, people played the activites they enjoyed and outside of RPing (even then I saw people trying to out RP each other in Goldshire in Vanilla lol) there was always some kind of competition, big or small.

For you and others it may not have been competitive, but it was only because you didnt notice it. Shoot, I didnt notice it until I hit 60 in Vanilla. TBC it became more evident and WOTLK was when Blizz decided to capitalize on it. But none of that actually matters. Everything about the game that you and everyone else (including myself) enjoyed, is still there. It’s still playable and just as good as it was when it was released.

Edit: The only difference between then and now, is the groups you either have or don’t have to play with. But we all got older and life happened.

Those same elements still do exist though.
I wouldn’t say the competitive elements weren’t a huge part of the games design though.
Blizzard went out of the way to record world-firsts for raiding, again using the AQ opening as an example, they intentionally made that a time-limited event.
Spawn rates were designed to be partially limited and take a long time. That inherently created a feast or famine mindset.
Hunters farming rares, etc.

You can quest through the game, you can do side-quests as you want.
You can grind mobs if you want, you can pvp, etc, etc, etc.

PvP and world PvP were scored and tallied.

And again, questing inherently led to dungeons and raiding.
When you went to Ashenvale, there was an entire subset of quests which had the intentional purpose of you going through BFD. like the whole upper half of the zone was designed around that.

Yes, you could play the way you want, but that same thing can be said of retail. You aren’t required to do M+. Hell you aren’t even required to raid unless you want.

The day Paladins were allowed into the Horde.
PvP became beyond unbalanced…and The Horde became the (PvP) class.

BGs were then run as HP farms for the Horde.
Hasn’t been right since.

Wow’s fix? Give every class healing and/or damage shields. And the once Tank/Healer/Dps concept is now… Overwatch 2 with Warcraft skins.

I said what I said.

Pushing for server firsts in vanilla with roster poaching and everyone trying to hide strats could get pretty competitive.

Interactive lore tidbits (skippable after first experiencing them), non-linear/split linear pathing, exploration rewards (Secret side paths, hidden rooms) etc.

When it’s not limited exclusively to a linear sequence of a few groups of trash followed by a boss encounter.

Think Blackrock Depths (best dungeon in WoW so far, and by far when it comes to what a dungeon standard should be) and maybe Stratholme.
OG Sunken Temple and Tazavesh almost hit that spot too.

It could also include random enemy placement from a limited pool, different boss patterns on different runs, random power ups etc.

Things that would make leaderboard warriors cry, but be praised by RPers.

We don’t need all dungeons to be like that, but at least 2-3 per expansion would be great.

Also, many people are missing the point Robu and Ratherin are making:

Other than PvP, the content in Vanilla was not designed with competition in mind.
People made it about competition, as they can with anything, really, but that was not ingrained in the design like it is now.

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We aren’t missing the point; you just electively ignored all the PvE aspects that were literally viewed and used in a competitive sense.
By the developers, just for context here.

Eh… Sorry but I really don’t think this is an issue. If you don’t want to do the competitive stuff then don’t do it. This game doesn’t revolve only around you forum lurking casuals

If I’m being honest, the seeds for competitive gameplay in WoW were sown during the game’s inception. Keeping in mind that many of game’s original developers were from top-end raiding guilds in Everquest.

The thing is… WoW was a breakout hit for the genre, attracting far more people who were NOT into the competitive aspects of the game. But I think it became more obviously competitive once the game had peaked and started to decline in population; so around mid-WotLK.

Non-competitive players tried the game, had their fill, and left. A select few stuck around for the handful of good times they had, but the game is pretty much an endless uphill struggle for them because there are some fundamental disconnects with the game’s design and how they want to approach it.

Those who say WoW is “more casual than ever”? They can’t really see the forest from the trees here, as it seems the game is still built around the mindset that the player wants to focus on progression in some way. So there’s avenues for easy progression, but it’s not what the “casuals” actually want from the game.


The nearly-unavoidable counterpoint in FFXIV, which is designed with a fundamentally different approach that is much more narrative-focused; it’s quite obviously modeled after the single-player JRPGs of old, which puts the narrative front & centre. This is much more casual-friendly and closer to what many consider an RPG.

Conversely, WoW’s based off another RPG - Diablo, which is the premier example of running the same thing over and over again for a chance at some randomized loot that might be an upgrade. Storytelling had never really been Blizz’ strong suit, aside from cool-looking set-piece moments, and that has only become more obvious over time. And let’s be honest here, WoW is only JUST starting to get past the “bad fanfic” levels of writing… and even then, there’s nowhere enough time being given for the narrative to play out properly.

Anyhow, the point here is that a good story carries along casual players far better than gameplay systems… and it comes down to the simple fact that casual players don’t really plan on sticking around through the game’s life-cycle. A good story for them means they’ll have a good time for the time they’re playing the game, while systems to keep them sticking around become a source of frustration as they have the stuff they’re interested in blocked by arbitrary grinds.

Anyhow, WoW’s design has pushed a lot of “casual” players out… which made competitive-minded players more prevalent, turning into something of a vicious cycle that further reinforced that competitive nature which keeps driving out non-competitive players.

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It wasn’t, and that’s not really up for debate, to be honest lol

Like, I think a lot of you are missing the point here. This game has no semblance of interesting gameplay or content outside of M+, raiding, and PvP. I understand that WoW had certain facets of its mock-up that were competitive throughout its history, but it wasn’t the only thing worth doing.

I can do the same things as I’ve always done, but the framework around those things have been significantly degraded. Leveling doesn’t feel good anymore because scaling erodes any sense of power progression, and gearing is effectively automated because stats don’t matter until you get to max level. You just equip whatever has the highest item level without any consideration as to how it benefits your build or your character. More than that, gear is so easily replaced that getting it doesn’t feel impactful in any capacity.

But even beyond that, the endgame itself was never really all that competitive, either. Dungeons weren’t a race, nor were raids. The M+ culture and scaling difficulties is an intrinsically modern WoW thing. I don’t find anecdotes such as the opening of AQ to be a good example of how WoW has always been competitive, because it simply wasn’t.

Yeah, you’re right. I don’t have to do any of that.

But the alternative is an absolutely hollowed-out shell of an experience that has no sense of reward or progression, so if I want to play WoW, that really is my only choice in terms of meaningful content.

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Since about TBC or Wrath.

Did we ever outline what max level meaningful content was previously?

Because I dont know what is being referenced other than vague words. I dont have any specific frame of reference.

Once people started saying that the game doesn’t start until cap. And it’s no wonder why growth and retention declined. You don’t recruit and keep new players by telling them they need to suffer through the boring process in order to get to cap when they don’t even know if they will like it. They’ll just play something they know they like.

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So TBC?