When are Gdruid buffs coming?

Just fine isn’t good enough. Bears (and all specs for that matter) should be awesome to play. I’m in that mediocre category, M+10-15. Can I do +15s? Sure. And when I raided, I could tank Heroic bosses, too. That alone is not enough.
There are plenty of lists of things that Bears ought to have. Maybe not all of them, but most. And many of them are things we’ve had that have been taken away.
Ranged silence, snare, Maul being interesting, Crit being useful, just to name a few. These are abilities that make the spec better. Abilities that make it more fun. I want more fun.

Saying that Bears are “capable” is accepting that they are a Grade D class and that Grade D is good enough. It’s not. Saying that Bears are “just fine” is saying that they are a Grade C class and that Grade C is good enough. It’s not.

You may think it’s ok for Bears to be “capable” or “just fine”. I don’t. Bears should be great. They’re not great. And they haven’t been great for a long time.

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I think the important thing is to have an understanding of each side;.

There are people who don’t do M+ or raid and see bear as fine, yet many high-level raiders, raid leaders, and WoW personalities say that Guardian druid is and has been since Legion been in a weird state where they are lacking “something”, whether it’s an ability being impactful or having a group-utility that’s desired.

I don’t enjoy Guardian druid, haven’t since after Legion. The most we can do is provide feedback, constructive, concise, with facts; not feelings.

I know I’m sounding hypocritical because of how passionate about Guardian druids I have been in these discussions but I think the important thing is coming to an agreement; yes Guardian druids need TLC compared to the other tanks.

At the end of the day, who’s opinion matters more? Unfortunately, Blizzards.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to stand here patronizing, yet it hurts to see the divide among Guardian druids state. Some of us have been giving feedback since BFA, only to see less positive changes in Shadowlands. :frowning:

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Well said. Something is definitely wrong - and Blizzard isn’t addressing it. That’s something many of us are in agreement on. We certainly shouldn’t be a “House divided.” Where does that get us? A lot of the arguing here, as I can see, consists of people misunderstanding each other, but basically agreeing with each other.

I don’t do high-level content; however, I can still tell the difference between Legion Guardian Druids and BFA Guardian Druids because I’ve played both of them a lot. Likewise, I’m a little concerned that SL Guardian Druids are going to be even worse - and possibly atrocious at the beginning of the expansion. I don’t have to be a Mythic raider to tell the difference, to feel the effects of this “Something.”

Like yourself, I enjoyed Legion Guardian Druid. BFA Guardian Druid is just not the same. We lost too much coming into this expansion, and we never got it back. IMO Legion was fun, but BFA has been a real trial: Guardian Druids struggled until about patch 8.2.5+. Basically, most of the expansion. They’re a little better right now, but this is only because of essences and corruption - rental powers that every class/spec has access to. The sad reality is that we needed these essences and corruptions, these rental powers, just to be viable at all in BFA. That’s what needs to be fixed. This has got to stop. The base spec, stripped of all the rental powers propping it up, needs to be addressed. At least that’s what I think, for what it’s worth.

I’m hoping for the best come SL, even if it seems unlikely. I love my Druid, my “Cow bear” as I call him. Definitely my favourite toon.

Thanks for your time,

Barespanks

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I don’t think there’s any division. The only people saying Guardian doesn’t need fixes are people who don’t play Guardian Druids.

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What I meant by division in the community is this perception, practically being forced upon us - or rather reinforced, that only Guardian Druids playing high-level end-game content are feeling the effects of poor spec design. This is simply untrue. Poor spec design is poor spec design at all levels and in any content of the game. Perhaps the effects become more glaring the more difficult the content becomes, that may be a defensible point, but the issues are still present on lower-levels of difficulty all the same. That’s what I meant.

Thanks for your time,

Barespanks

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As someone that is finally giving monk a try after all these years, it is almost night and day leveling it through dungeons compared to what it was like on my bear at the beginning of bfa. I remember struggling for aggro and just feeling like a limp noodle. And I would think tryin to hold aggro against ppl with essences and corruption would be way harder now vs then. And this is without having those systems on my monk.
I didn’t try bear admittedly until the end of legion and only because I wanted the MT skins. Fell in love with it. As someone who has mained warrior since vanilla, for the most part, I’ve seen it several times where blizz just guts a spec because it becomes too OP, Warriors got it in early legion and are getting it again in sl. I just don’t understand why they always seem to gut specs instead of tweaking numbers…

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Like yourself, I didn’t start playing Guardian Druid until sometime in Legion. Actually, I didn’t start tanking until sometime in Legion.

I started playing WoW during the Wrath of the Lich King. Back then, my main was an Arcane Mage. During Cataclysm, I started to branch out a little: I made a healer alt - a Holy Priest; however, my main was still an Arcane Mage. This was a big step for me, in that I was moving away from DPS and, progressively, into the roles that I personally considered to be more accountable for failure, that had more responsibility.

At the start of Legion, my healer alt became my main as I pretty much shelved my Arcane Mage. I found myself enjoying the increased responsibility and the effect that I had on the battlefield in PVP: a good healer can really turn the tides of battle, a good healer can turn a sure loss into a win.

Part way through Legion I became even more bold. I began to think, “Perhaps now is a good time to try tanking?” Admittedly, I was terrified of tanking. I was so used to just following a tank around, killing mobs or healing the party - I wasn’t really sure that I could play the part of the de facto party leader; however, I was willing to try. At any rate, I’d start out easy, tanking Ragefire Chasm anyways. I could get a taste and see if it was for me. The only real question now was: which tank? I definitely wanted something easy to play, seeing as I had a lot to learn about the dungeons already.

I levelled a couple of toons to level 15 and jumped into Ragefire Chasm. Protection Paladin was my first go. It went well enough, but I just wasn’t feeling it. I levelled him up through dungeons until about level 25 and then dropped him. My next go was Guardian Druid. I loved it. Guardian Druid was perfect: simple yet effective. The rotation wasn’t complicated, there was always something to do - a button to press, and I could focus on learning the dungeons, paying attention to nasty mechanics, tricky mobs, positioning, and being the de facto party leader I had to be.

I levelled my Guardian Druid up to Legion content via dungeon spamming so that I could walk confidently into the new content having a fairly firm grasp of what my toon could do and could not do - his strengths and weaknesses; also, so I could become familiar with all the spells in his toolkit. There would be no surprises, outside of the new content. Of course, it didn’t really take too long to level him: tanks, as I understand it, have always enjoyed practically instant dungeon queues precisely because they are the least played role in the game - not least of all because of the immense accountability they hold, their responsibilities to their party members and teammates, and the fact that they are typically made the de facto leaders in dungeons. It takes a little getting used to.

I still remember the first time I queued up as a tank. I remember how it slowly began to sink in: these people here with me were waiting on me to make the first move. They could do nothing without me. These mobs would just kill them. I was no longer sitting in the back seat, playing my toon on cruise control - the speed dictated by whatever tank we had; rather, I was in the driver’s seat. There was no one to wait on. There was no other leader. I was the leader. It was go time - I had to boldly throw myself into the fray like a tank does.

My love of Guardian Druid is pretty strong - hence why I feel a need to try and help make it a better spec going into SL. It was my first real tank. I’ve done dungeons, Mythic+, raiding, Arenas, BGs, RBGs, and WPVP on my Guardian Druid - more than I have done on any other toon. Legion Guardian Druid felt really good by the end of the expansion - perhaps it was a little over-tuned and needed a slight nerf, but then that was Legion “Balancing”; however, we lost a lot when BFA dropped. All the things that made Legion Guardian Druid feel so good were unceremoniously stripped away and we were left with the stark reality: a poorly designed base spec. BFA Guardian Druid was practically unplayable until 8.2.5. I mean, you could play it, but it was sub-par and certainly not enjoyable outside of questing and WQs.

I just don’t want SL to be a repeat of BFA. I refuse to switch mains or play a different tank just because the devs do a terrible job. I don’t do “Flavour of the month.” I won’t let Blizzard dictate what I should play. Honestly, if SL is going to be a repeat of BFA, then I’d much rather just quit the game, like Blizzard decided to quit Guardian Druids. In the meantime, I hope.

Thanks for your time,

Barespanks

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Based on…?

No, it’s not at all. There’s way more factors that go into pushing high m+ than just your spec’s capability and the effort you put in. See; it’s not solo content.

Aside from pretty massive buffs that has made it perfectly competitive, but sure?

They’re…not?

And well above that*

And this is based on your vast experience in requiring more support in said areas of content?

That’s objectively false.

It’s always free. Unless you mean reset, in which case, gore?

Maybe because things are going to be completely difference in Shadowlands. Quit it with your crap talking points already

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You’re talking about leveling, and experiences from years ago? What.

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Ah I was wondering where the real troll had been. But yes, comparing what it was like doin dungeons from 110-120 on a bear before it got a ton of barrowed power to a monk that didn’t have them competing against dps who now do is night and day. But please carry on with your regularly scheduled program…

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Not only do you not make sense, but it’s actually great, that monk’s the tank more known for threat issues at the moment in dungeons, not guardian.

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Wait… Guardian Druids can hold threat?! Whew - what a relief. I guess that means Guardian Druids don’t need any fixes after all.

Thanks for your time,

Barespanks

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What massive buffs? Did you mean adding the ability to cast Remove Corruption in Bear form? Or was it the addition of a dance animation for the Mage Tower artifact appearance? I honestly can’t think of any “massive buffs” to the Guardian spec in the last 2 or 3 years. We did get gear like all the other specs that has served to mask the problems with Guardian, but you mentioned “buffs” to the spec. You’ll have to be more specific, other than gear upgrades (i.e. essences and traits), to help us understand what you’re talking about.

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Oh dang. Look who’s back!

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Yeah, could’ve said the same thing for BFA.

Oh, that’s right, they had to buff damage to our abilities twice in the expansion and we’re still short in Shadowlands without legendaries.

Big buffs?

Oh Berserk, right. That’s about it.

My guildmate said this about tanking on beta :
“I tanked one key on it, it feels exactly like it does on live except you can’t have both typhoon and ursols vortex which is an absolute travesty”

His comments continuing.

“My only thoughts would be frenzied regen needs to be off gcd and they need to let it have the ursol/typhoon combo back”

When I asked him if he felt at any moment that slow would be useful for the dungeon he tested.
" Scoodles😼08/02/2020

Slows are always useful for tanks"

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The hair splitting in this thread is crazy. The bottom line is: bears need buffs. Tanking is often looked as binary, (did you win?) where healing is less so, and obviously DPS is extra analog.

Well, when balancing tanks, you have to look at the analog. Damage taken per second, damage mitigated/returned per second, damage done per second. You do this for every mob type - boss, trash, mini boss, caster heavies, melee heavies, etc. Do the math. Representation numbers are as much a popularity contest as an index on power.

More than just numbers, bears need a direction. What’s the motif? Damage sponge that healers love to heal? Better buff the F out of mastery then. Are they dodge tanks that have tools to snap-recover from bad RNG stretches? Lower the CD on FR and give IF two charges with a reset mechanic instead of a rage cost. What’s the damage profile? AoE bleeds? Buff thrash. Single target bruiser? Buff mangle/gore.

Threads like this make me a little angry. I got all the MT appearances except for healing because I thought I’d never heal. I’ve only seen my sweet bear form like 3-4 times this entire expansion. I only look at mana cat when I’m questing. It’s no bueno.

Some targeted buffs would be great, a numbers pass would be better. At this point, either blizzard has a secret playbook about how guardians are supposed to play that no one else has guessed correctly, OR they just don’t care - there may be some lingering “wanna be warrior” mentality lingering in the office, some inherent hybrid tax being applied even when it’s not warranted. It’s hard to believe it could be this wrong for this long.

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Bang on, my friend - especially your comments concerning the direction with Guardian Druids.

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This is a bad joke, right?

  • All damage abilities increased 12%.
  • At level 80, Guardian Druids now learn Stampeding Roar (Rank 2), which reduces the cooldown of Stampeding Roar by 1 minute.
  • Ursol’s Vortex (replaces Intimidating Roar) - Conjures a vortex of wind for 10 seconds at the destination, reducing the movement speed of all enemies within 8 yards by 50%. The first time an enemy attempts to leave the vortex, winds will pull that enemy back to its center.
  • Ironfur now has a maximum of 8 stacks.
  • Ironfur and Maul now cost 40 Rage (was 45).
  • Mangle now generates 10 Rage (was 8).
  • Shifting to Bear Form now gives 25 Rage (was 20).
  • Mangle and Thrash direct damage increased by 15%.
  • Frenzied Regeneration’s healing has been increased by 33%.

That’s objectively false

Sure, provide all the data you have on this.

This is entirely a you problem.

That’s already occurred.

…like what are you even talking about.

Somehow that’s not remotely what I was saying, but good on you for trying to play. That said, yes, guardian is strong as is.

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So you wouldn’t change anything about Guardian?

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None of the minor adjustments you cite have anything to do with the myriad of issues the players have been presenting for YEARS.

  • Damage increase is a numbers pass.
  • Stamp Roar is the same as it was before.
  • Ursol’s is a change, not a buff; we lost the AoE Cower effect which many people preferred.
  • Ironfur stacks is a fix, not a buff
  • Rage cost lowered is a minor buff
  • Mangle rage is a minor buff
  • Shift rage is meaningless; it needs to be equal to Ironfur cost
  • Mangle/Thrash damage increase is a numbers pass
  • FR increase is minor and nowhere close to where it was (based on damage taken)

The only buffs in this list that relates to the vast feedback offered is getting closer to being able to cast Ironfur sooner after the pull. Nothing else on that list has any impact on the issues presented in the multiple threads here. And nothing on that list is a “massive buff”.

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