From what I can see, you have everything...
-insane mobility
-great AoE
-great single target
-good defensives (blur, darkness, talentable netherwalk)
-good raid utility (darkness, chaos brand)
-fantastic utility (consume magic, 10 yd interrupt that grants resources, baseline aoe stun)
-good burst (meta, nemesis if talented)
didn't blizzard want classes to have strengths and weaknesses? what does havoc not excel at? i wanna know
Well, we look pretty impressive on paper. But, all plans go out the window as soon as someone punches you in the face. We're like Lamborghinis at a Mississippi truck pull.
Roots
Also consume magic is the name of our 30 yard range purge that also restores recourses if magic is removed. Changed it in BfA I think kick is called disrupt now.
Also consume magic is the name of our 30 yard range purge that also restores recourses if magic is removed. Changed it in BfA I think kick is called disrupt now.
they r very very very squishy when they dont have cooldowns up.
if i get an opener on a DH i can usually have him at half HP before my stuns wear off.
(as a rogue of course)
if i get an opener on a DH i can usually have him at half HP before my stuns wear off.
(as a rogue of course)
This is all relating to PvE.
Blur is pretty good, plus our baseline Demonic Wards. Darkness is way to unreliable, especially without a shaman paring. If it were raid wide like Warrior shout it would be a good solo cooldown.
Netherwalk being on GCD, imo, is hard to justify over Soul Rending especially when you combine it with Demonic. There aren't any one time soaks that Netherwalk really shines at.
Nemesis is for the most part useless when Demonic or Momentum exists, for a number of reasons. First reason is the GCD usage, it is clunky and wastes time. The second reason is add or phase transitions are too frequent for Nemesis to have much value.
Outside of using Nemesis, we don't have much burst compared to other classes, but we have amazing sustained damage now.
For our weaknesses, we don't excel at anything and we are a selfish spec. DH haven't been strong enough to the degree where class stacking is beneficial in a raid environment. While our damage is good, outside of Chaos Brand there is no detriment of not having one in the raid.
10/29/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Cendalan-good defensives (blur, darkness, talentable netherwalk)
-good raid utility (darkness, chaos brand)
Blur is pretty good, plus our baseline Demonic Wards. Darkness is way to unreliable, especially without a shaman paring. If it were raid wide like Warrior shout it would be a good solo cooldown.
Netherwalk being on GCD, imo, is hard to justify over Soul Rending especially when you combine it with Demonic. There aren't any one time soaks that Netherwalk really shines at.
10/29/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Cendalan-good burst (meta, nemesis if talented)
Nemesis is for the most part useless when Demonic or Momentum exists, for a number of reasons. First reason is the GCD usage, it is clunky and wastes time. The second reason is add or phase transitions are too frequent for Nemesis to have much value.
Outside of using Nemesis, we don't have much burst compared to other classes, but we have amazing sustained damage now.
For our weaknesses, we don't excel at anything and we are a selfish spec. DH haven't been strong enough to the degree where class stacking is beneficial in a raid environment. While our damage is good, outside of Chaos Brand there is no detriment of not having one in the raid.
no MS, unreliable damage if player is competent, most utility is talented (e.g. no netherwalk if you dont take soul rending), weak defensives (blur is good, darkness is unreliable unless talented, netherwalk is talented).
Best things about demon hunter are mobility and the active cleave that occurs through our ST spells and abilities.
Best things about demon hunter are mobility and the active cleave that occurs through our ST spells and abilities.
Pve i think we r great
In arena, having to choose between a snare (which every edit: melee class has) over a stun which if you dont talent for really compounds our already weak cc. Our cc also needs to have detainment for it to be brought up to other classes
Darkness really isnt reliable unless talented for as well, as the poster above brought up and it requires you to stand still in an area.
Cleave is a plus but it really takes away from being partnered up with powerful cc classes like mage and rogue. Fel rush, blade dance, etc break a lot of ccs and unless u have crisp comms, its not viable.
Also our on demand burst is the most telegraphed burst in the game and is highly counterable from good players via disarm, root, etc. Good dhs can mitigate this by holding their burst until the proper time.
Our strengths r good and i really like that dhs have purge in bfa, but to say theres no downside is disingenuous
In arena, having to choose between a snare (which every edit: melee class has) over a stun which if you dont talent for really compounds our already weak cc. Our cc also needs to have detainment for it to be brought up to other classes
Darkness really isnt reliable unless talented for as well, as the poster above brought up and it requires you to stand still in an area.
Cleave is a plus but it really takes away from being partnered up with powerful cc classes like mage and rogue. Fel rush, blade dance, etc break a lot of ccs and unless u have crisp comms, its not viable.
Also our on demand burst is the most telegraphed burst in the game and is highly counterable from good players via disarm, root, etc. Good dhs can mitigate this by holding their burst until the proper time.
Our strengths r good and i really like that dhs have purge in bfa, but to say theres no downside is disingenuous
There are a ton of other classes that have amazing strengths literally exactly the bullet points you mentioned, why come into the DH forum to be condescending AF?
Roots, Snares, and people who know when to jump on the DH and when to ignore them.
You'd be surprised at how easy it is to just root a DH when they've popped any CD and watch as they just sit there unable to do anything.
You'd be surprised at how easy it is to just root a DH when they've popped any CD and watch as they just sit there unable to do anything.
10/29/2018 09:07 AMPosted by CendalanFrom what I can see, you have everything...
-insane mobility
-great AoE
-great single target
-good defensives (blur, darkness, talentable netherwalk)
-good raid utility (darkness, chaos brand)
-fantastic utility (consume magic, 10 yd interrupt that grants resources, baseline aoe stun)
-good burst (meta, nemesis if talented)
didn't blizzard want classes to have strengths and weaknesses? what does havoc not excel at? i wanna know
Compared to my mage...
1. They're not ranged. That's a pretty big disadvantage on a lot of the harder fights...
And it's rare that you see people asking SPECIFICALLY for melee. You see groups specifically for ranged all the time. Trust me, as a person that's played as both, you realize how rough it is for melee and you start to realize why melee are often buffed thru the nose.
Or so ranged players think...
2. Consume Magic can only be cast once every 10 seconds or so... mages can spam Spellsteal multiple times until their mana runs low... in a fight like Zul, Reborn, that's a pretty serious advantage.
Interrupt range for mages is definitely greater than 10 yds... the CD is a bit longer, but it locks the spell school for longer, too.
3. Iceblock actually REMOVES just about all debuffs (aside from some very specific ones that are intrinsic to raid encounters) and while it has a much longer CD, it's far more useful than even Netherwalk... and unlike DHs, it's not a talent. You don't have to sacrifice survivability to get it.
4. Mages have invisibility. In addition to being far away (usually), they have an "oh s***" button that lets them reset aggro and sometimes survive a wipe. If you get aggro as a DH, you're probably taking a dirt nap because you're right there.
This really comes in handy on those giant AoE pulls... because if your AoE burst is too good as Havoc, you're dead, and your DPS drops substantially when you've died.
5. DHs seem to only have that AoE stun. Mages have Frost Nova, plus Dragon's Breath and/or Slow and/or Blizzard and lots of other stuff. The AoE stun is nice... but if it's a 5 man, that Time Warp is definitely sexier.
6. Chaos Brand is nice, but so is Arcane Brilliance... and all the other utilities the classes bring.
7. Blink removes stuns AND roots. I believe Vengeful Retreat only removes snares... bear in mind, DHs are not ranged, so being that vulnerable to stuns and roots is bad not just for PvP.
Honestly, I could go on and on but it sounds like you're a "grass is greener on the other side" kind of guy.
10/29/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Beaumagnus10/29/2018 09:07 AMPosted by CendalanFrom what I can see, you have everything...
-insane mobility
-great AoE
-great single target
-good defensives (blur, darkness, talentable netherwalk)
-good raid utility (darkness, chaos brand)
-fantastic utility (consume magic, 10 yd interrupt that grants resources, baseline aoe stun)
-good burst (meta, nemesis if talented)
didn't blizzard want classes to have strengths and weaknesses? what does havoc not excel at? i wanna know
Compared to my mage...
1. They're not ranged. That's a pretty big disadvantage on a lot of the harder fights...
And it's rare that you see people asking SPECIFICALLY for melee. You see groups specifically for ranged all the time. Trust me, as a person that's played as both, you realize how rough it is for melee and you start to realize why melee are often buffed thru the nose.
Or so ranged players think...
2. Consume Magic can only be cast once every 10 seconds or so... mages can spam Spellsteal multiple times until their mana runs low... in a fight like Zul, Reborn, that's a pretty serious advantage.
Interrupt range for mages is definitely greater than 10 yds... the CD is a bit longer, but it locks the spell school for longer, too.
3. Iceblock actually REMOVES just about all debuffs (aside from some very specific ones that are intrinsic to raid encounters) and while it has a much longer CD, it's far more useful than even Netherwalk... and unlike DHs, it's not a talent. You don't have to sacrifice survivability to get it.
4. Mages have invisibility. In addition to being far away (usually), they have an "oh s***" button that lets them reset aggro and sometimes survive a wipe. If you get aggro as a DH, you're probably taking a dirt nap because you're right there.
This really comes in handy on those giant AoE pulls... because if your AoE burst is too good as Havoc, you're dead, and your DPS drops substantially when you've died.
5. DHs seem to only have that AoE stun. Mages have Frost Nova, plus Dragon's Breath and/or Slow and/or Blizzard and lots of other stuff. The AoE stun is nice... but if it's a 5 man, that Time Warp is definitely sexier.
6. Chaos Brand is nice, but so is Arcane Brilliance... and all the other utilities the classes bring.
7. Blink removes stuns AND roots. I believe Vengeful Retreat only removes snares... bear in mind, DHs are not ranged, so being that vulnerable to stuns and roots is bad not just for PvP.
Honestly, I could go on and on but it sounds like you're a "grass is greener on the other side" kind of guy.
interesting. i didn't know a lot of these things. ty for explaining
Yeah, if you play every class (or at least a lot of them), you'll realize that they all have strengths and weaknesses.10/29/2018 08:39 PMPosted by Cendalan10/29/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Beaumagnus...
Compared to my mage...
1. They're not ranged. That's a pretty big disadvantage on a lot of the harder fights...
And it's rare that you see people asking SPECIFICALLY for melee. You see groups specifically for ranged all the time. Trust me, as a person that's played as both, you realize how rough it is for melee and you start to realize why melee are often buffed thru the nose.
Or so ranged players think...
2. Consume Magic can only be cast once every 10 seconds or so... mages can spam Spellsteal multiple times until their mana runs low... in a fight like Zul, Reborn, that's a pretty serious advantage.
Interrupt range for mages is definitely greater than 10 yds... the CD is a bit longer, but it locks the spell school for longer, too.
3. Iceblock actually REMOVES just about all debuffs (aside from some very specific ones that are intrinsic to raid encounters) and while it has a much longer CD, it's far more useful than even Netherwalk... and unlike DHs, it's not a talent. You don't have to sacrifice survivability to get it.
4. Mages have invisibility. In addition to being far away (usually), they have an "oh s***" button that lets them reset aggro and sometimes survive a wipe. If you get aggro as a DH, you're probably taking a dirt nap because you're right there.
This really comes in handy on those giant AoE pulls... because if your AoE burst is too good as Havoc, you're dead, and your DPS drops substantially when you've died.
5. DHs seem to only have that AoE stun. Mages have Frost Nova, plus Dragon's Breath and/or Slow and/or Blizzard and lots of other stuff. The AoE stun is nice... but if it's a 5 man, that Time Warp is definitely sexier.
6. Chaos Brand is nice, but so is Arcane Brilliance... and all the other utilities the classes bring.
7. Blink removes stuns AND roots. I believe Vengeful Retreat only removes snares... bear in mind, DHs are not ranged, so being that vulnerable to stuns and roots is bad not just for PvP.
Honestly, I could go on and on but it sounds like you're a "grass is greener on the other side" kind of guy.
interesting. i didn't know a lot of these things. ty for explaining
When I play ret pally, I love the ability to self-heal and bubble and the slightly higher durability, but you're slow as all hell compared to Havoc.
My biggest grip about Havoc is you spend a lot of time in demon form. In and of itself, I wouldn't mind it at all if it was a minor alteration (bigger horns, fel aura, wings sprout) but you turn into the same giant model that all other Havoc players become... when you start out in Heroism/TW/Bloodlust and there's multiple Havoc players, it's REALLY tough to tell each other apart.