How does everyone feel about the 20 person roster for Mythic raiding?
Are people happy with this figure or do they want to see it go up or down? (10 man or back to 40 man?)
This is just my two cents and I’m happy to see what others think on this topic. I personally would love smaller raid sizes. One of my reasons are self-serving but the others I think just illustrate challenges of running a 20 person Mythic raid
- (self-serving reason out of the way first) if mythic raid sizes drop, it will encourage more people to pick up tanking. As a main tank myself, it won’t affect how I raid but it will definitely incentivize me to play my DPS alts more often at a high level if there are more tanks around
- the constant need for recruitment. Having a larger raid size statistically means there’s a higher chance of people turning over for one reason or another. Given the poor cadence of content in SL, I’ve certainly felt the need for recruitment ramp up even further. Even though we’re not a top 100 guild, finding players who are interested in Mythic raiding is already tough enough.
- Needing a bench. Maintaining a bench is hard and it’s totally understandable - players don’t want to sit around as alternates, especially if they can find a regular slot somewhere else. But from my experience, maintaining a bunch is a ton of work on top of recruitment to fill in for those situations where regulars are missing a night or two for one-off reasons
- smaller raid sizes mean there is a lower chance of cliques forming within a raid group. This happens to the majority of raid groups even though people claim their group is the exception. It brings out unnecessary drama and often times leads to what I call “rebuilding” tiers where a subsection of the raid leaves and the remaining group is left to rebuild over a tier.
We need flex mythic and removal of the weekly lock to the group imo.
I would be raiding mythic a lot more if not tied to 1 per char. And a lot more groups if smaller and larger sizes work.
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5 people all role agnostic
I get why they don’t want to drop it lower. (Mythic Sylvanas, for example, where the raid has to split into two halves, might be difficult to have enough Terror Orb interrupts, depending on comp. Similar to how 10-man groups could struggle with interrupts on lava pillars on Blackwing Descent Nefarian.)
But I would be very pleased if they removed the 20-man cap and let us bring up to 30-players. One of the worst things about Mythic raiding is that you need to have more than 20 people on the roster, but not everyone on your roster can actually get to play, because of the cap. Somebody’s gotta sit. I’d like to be able to play with my friends, rather than having them sit.
So allow it to scale from 20 to 30.
(And before somebody jumps in about the “race for the world first” that they’re a spectator for but don’t actually participate in, (1) who cares, and (2) tell wowprogress to only count raids using exactly 20 people, or whatever. But don’t dictate the gameplay for the other 99.999999% based on your need for a spectator sport.)
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I agree on your point for the removal of the weekly lock out.
Flex mythic raiding would be way too hard for Blizzard to balance. I think that’s why they moved away from it back in WoD (or was it a different expansion?).
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As if Mythic raiding is in any way shape or form balanced now with Ashen Hollow and uberBoomkins and all the other nonsense.
Saying “letting people play would be unbalanced” seems kind of silly in the grand scheme of things, considering that.
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After some quick googling, here’s a Jeremy Feasel quote on flex mythic raiding:
“And one of the things that we learned was that it’s actually relatively difficult to have a cutting edge raid boss difficulty fight that can be done by anywhere from 10 to 30 People because of the way mechanics scale. So there’s definitely a lot of discussion there with the encounter team about how best to facilitate something like that if we were going to change the raid size, while also maintaining the importance of difficulty all the way up to the mythic spectrum.”
Source:
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Mythic is balanced around having 20 people in the roster simply from a design, numbers, and class/spec requirement for certain fights.
It’s not something you can balance properly. How would you overhaul a fight if everyone brought a 5th healer as the 21st spot on every single fight?
These are reasons to not have 10 people, as I mentioned in my first post.
They’re not reasons to not allow between 20 and 30.
Selfishly I would prefer the mythic raiding be a bit more flexible in terms of raider count, but I understand why it is the way it is.
20 is a nice number to have settled on as it’s not as difficult to scrape together as a full 40 man raid but yet isn’t so small that people get left out either.
People get left out on every boss fight, though, because you can’t bring the entire team on any fight.
I probably misworded that. If you have a decently large roster someone’s going to get left out no matter the content, but if it’s scaled too small then there will be a lot of unhappy people that prefer the more “epic” (your mileage may vary) feel of a larger raid. It’s a tough spot to be in, and even if you have exactly 20 people so no one gets left out, real life happens and then you’re stuck relying on pugs if you want to raid that night.
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As many as it takes to get it done…why should there be limits…we should do a free for all raid…lolol
JK…
I keep thinking its funny how certain things ALWAYS have the max show up to do it…like tormentors & WB…
I think it has more to do with the 1 & done mentality…
And, I am right with them…I dont want to spend hours locked in to one piece of content trying to finish it…I wanna move on to something else, lol
I think you are onto something here though. I’m supportive of smaller raid sizes but that’s also because I’ve seen the success of smaller raid sizes at the pinnacle of difficulty across a variety of games. Even with WoW, evolving from 40 person raids down to 20. I think the "epic"ness of large raids has certainly worn off over the past decade.
I’m not a fan of scaling. I like the 20 person format
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Scaling that handled extra tanks or healers differently than DPS.
Also z it doesn’t really matter if the RWF and HOF are still reserved for groups with 20
When I first had a really consistent guild it was a 10m guild and every time we raided it felt like running with friends even though we were tackling the hardest content. It was great and I loved it. It was kind of sucky that it wasn’t considered as “serious” as 25m guilds, but it was what it was. (Looking at you, legendaries that could only be obtainable in 25m, certain titles, certain mounts, and so on.)
20 seems an acceptable compromise between the raid sizes in retrospect.
Personally (and again, your mileage may vary) I found the individual responsibility piece of a 10m to be much tighter than 25m, and that’s one of the things I appreciated about it. One healer down in a 10m is likely a wipe, but in 25m it’s more likely to be recoverable, for instance.
I didn’t care much for the 25m size not only because of that but because it felt more impersonal. I didn’t raid in the days of 40m, but I can imagine that it would be fairly similar.
Again though, this is all down to individual preference, and I’m sure there are plenty of people that pine for the 40m experience again.
I just think for the overall health of the game having that medium raid size is the best way to keep people involved. It’s a balance between not having to have so many people on to just run the content in the first place vs having it flex so much that the numbers are totally broken at certain raid sizes. Scaling between 10 and 25m did certainly get a bit funky at times because the encounters were balanced at the 25m level back then.
So, because I write books, my TL;DR is that I selfishly want a flexible raid size so it’s easier to get the comp to handle mythic raiding, but I understand why it is how it is and agree it’s the best thing for the raiding experience overall.
Eww…
This is literally the worst possible way of doing this interpretation. We need to be able to raid with less people, not more.
I’d literally only have 20-person raid over having 20-30 person scaling, because Flex scaling makes balance a balancing nightmare while doing nothing to address the fact that people want to play with smaller raid groups. WE WANT SMALLER RAID GROUPS NOT LARGER.
The ideal to me would make flex scale between 15-20 people. The fight should work best with 20 people, but if someone just isn’t keeping up, or someone doesn’t show up, you can bench them, you can do the fight without them, but of course it will be harder. Not as harder as missing a whole person, but harder enough that you want to sweet-spot 20-man. If you run it with 19, its fine, but make 20-person optimal. Fights balanced for 20 people, and only really the DPS checks are changing with raid size (and the dps check becomes harder if you drop people).
Blizzard has said they balance flex (normal/heroic) around 20. The DPS checks become increasingly easier as you add people from 10 to 20, and then become harder as you add more people from 20 to 30 - but in a mythic raid setting you could add more immunities so the 20-30 person scaling would be bad to encourage. Just cut that top end part off, and then eliminate 10-14 person groups because you lack utilities and it becomes too hard to balance against a 20-person group… and you have a really good improvement over the current system.
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Honestly, It’d probably be better to lower. Why? It’s very hard to recruit 20 people. It’s much easier to form a group around 10 people than it is 20. I also think the boss lockout should be removed. Let’s say I’m in a group and we Down 1 or 2 bosses. I’m stuck to that lockout if I want to try other bosses.loot lockout can stay, but I think boss lockout should go.
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Maybe I’m misremembering but I think this is a thing already. We have been able to add people that have already killed X boss and they can still do the encounter, they just don’t receive loot for it.