The Crossroads cinematic was just so cringe, I would have been less cringe if she didn’t just attack the Zandalari. And now her whole “I will never forgive/trust [Sylvanas]” she flips like a pancake, does she want peace or doesn’t she? The whole message that we are not the people we were in the past, and we can choose to be different, is already lost on her.
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I saw Sylvanas gaining the Val’kyr as them seeking a master after Lich King Arthas died, and they found Sylvanas the best option, but maybe it’s what you said.
Her only crimes are against the Alliance? What about Eyir? The Desolate Council? Thomas Zelling?
I think it’d take more than an apology from Genn to make up for what he did. Genn was wrong about the Horde “betraying” them on the Broken Shore, that should’ve been acknowledged. Along with Genn’s “brilliant” idea to abandon the war against the Legion to take down Sylvanas. Though I’m not sure if he was trying to wipe out Sylvanas’ race, or just kill Sylvanas herself.
From my perspective, Genn’s actions were also in response to the Forsaken decimating his homeland, displacing his people and killing his son (which Sylvanas herself did, then mocked Genn about it before his body was cold).
What do you want to know about Sylvanas that we don’t already know? She’s got more lore than almost any other WoW character (including several older ones like Malfurion and Deathwing).
How you feel Sylvanas fans are being treated… Night Elf fans, for one, feel the same way, especially after the Burning of Teldrassil and how the story is literally bending over backwards to absolve Sylvanas of her role in that. I feel the same way about the asinine villain-batting of Yrel’s group.
I’m not saying Sylvanas has to be killed off, I just want her story over and done with. I do share an appreciation for Laura Bailey’s voice and find Jaina - as much as I like her - to be overused and increasingly poorly written.
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I want to talk about these specifically. One Eyir, sure but that was a crime against Eyir herself and Sylvanas was technically punished for that, she lost the means to gain immortality for herself and her people. The Desolate Council are dead, she can’t exactly spologize to them, but what she can do, with healing the rift between her and her sisters, is to become more open to the idea of Forsaken rekindling relationships with their living relatives, so the Desolate Council didn’t die in vain. The only person that Sylvanas would need to made ammends with over Zelling’s death (outside Zelling himself) is Lillian. This could be something that is dealt with when Sylvanas is re-accepted into the Forsaken. I really don’t see any of these things as long term conflicts or setbacks Sylvanas has to face, but they are expected for character development.
One of the things I really liked from Before the Storm was the relationship between Genn and Alonsus Foal, I don’t necessarily think Genn needs to apologize to Sylvanas for Genn to grow as a character, as long as he makes meaningful strides to deal with his grief without looking for someone to blame, that would be a huge step for him. Him not blaming Sylvanas and just accepting that Liam sacrificed himself for Genn would be a big step.
That’s not entirely true, we got to know Deahtwing as Lord Prestor, he appeared as a major character in the lore. Between WC2 and Before the Storm Sylvanas has had just a few chapters in Arthas and a paragraph in Tides of Darkness, and small flashbacks in Edge of Night about what she was like when she was alive. That’s it.
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I feel like Night Elves have been treated like victims of this situation because they are. but a lot of people don’t realize that Sylvanas fans are also victims of this bad writing. We don’t get treated with the empathy we deserve, we get accused of condoning genocide.
I’ve always empathized with you on this. I don’t think it’s fair to villian bat any fan favorite because it just creates unneeded toxicity. I agree with you that villian baiting Y’rel just to tell a “religion is bad” is setting up this fan base, which is known for its toxicity, to target faith. It’s bad enough with this “The Gods are Robots” narrative, it’s already leaning into some subtle atheist agenda.
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Blizzard had Sylvanas burn the Night Elf homeland and had it canon that innocent children got obliterated because of Sylvanas’s actions and you say killing her off would be the most offensive thing? Are you huffing paint thinner or something?
Sylvanas being killed, like traditionally killed and sent to the Shadowlands…how would that even be any noticeable punishment seeing as she’s spent most of her time there recently willingly and has gone on about how life is pointless.
Sylvanas has committed crimes that are just completely irreversable and needs to be just final deathed out of the Warcraft story and the ‘I wasn’t in control of my actions’ plotline just dropped.
Why can’t you braindead Sylvanas fanboys realise she is more of a monster to Night Elf (and Worgen) fans then Arthas was to the Undead or Blood Elves? Or Kil’jaeden was to the Orcs or Draenei? How about we bring both of them back and force those respective races to forgive them?
Maybe because an entire race takes precedence over one character idc?
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The one thing I am afraid of happening is that even now, when we are pretty much at the finale… not once has Sylvanas been humbled, defeated or anything of the kind.
She has always been in control everything. The one time she actually lost anything was back in Legion. Since then she has gone from one victory to the next power move.
I don’t know who finds this type of one sided character power fantasy satisfying but I don’t thought this story is probably written with Sylvanas fans in mind more than any other group.
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yeah, it seems that way but she’s been loosing this whole time.
She lost the Horde, she lost the Forsaken, she lost her home, she lost her little plan to kill Bwonsamdi in Shadows Rising, she lost Nathanos, she lost the war and she was defeated. She literally has nothing left and she has to now live with the fact that she’s a terrible person and is personally responsible for her actions.
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pretty much everything you said is objectively wrong except for the nathanos bit and he did it on purpose.
it’s not though, as people pointed out, now that he too is not under the control of her and the jailer, he may be horrified by who she became. She made him kill his cousin, he felt regret and remorse, which he wasn’t supposed to feel but it was so strong it “broke through”
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what are you talking about exactly?
The novels have been planting seeds of doubt in Nathanos about Sylvanas and how evil she is. In Dark Mirror he feels regret but he also confirms that he’s not entirely in control, everything is her will (which sounds a lot like how the LK had subtle MC over the Scourge)
Then in Shadows Rising, Bwonsamdi actually outright says Sylvanas is evil and although deep down Nathanos doesn’t want to admit it, the seeds were planted that he wasn’t following who he thought he was. So did he really win? he sacrificed himself thinking he would go straight to Sylvanas but she didn’t even know he had died.
I personally am looking forward to their reunion because I don’t think it’s going to be as rosy as people assume. She’s not just going to “get her happy ending” and ride off into the sunset.
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I am talking about the game and what we see in it. I have little interest in the novels.
Then you are missing a LARGE chunk of the lore, sad to say.
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thats not the subject we are talking about.
No, but you’ve outright admitted that you don’t understand the content I’m talking about because you have not read the novels where these things took place.
I don’t feel like I have to explain to you the validity of content found in the books as actual canon.
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I said something and you replied with something completely off topic.
If you didnt want to talk about what I said then why reply to me?
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Aren’t some of the Desolate Council still alive? In Before the Storm some were rejected by their living relatives (and Sylvanas exploited that, saying almost word for word “no one loves you like your Dark Lady does”), others tried to defect to the Alliance and were killed for it (which is fair, that was treason) and those who were killed for re-connecting with their living relatives. Didn’t Zelling have living relatives he was in touch with? 
Hasn’t Sylvanas been a major character since Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne? She got as much spotlight as Arthas in the undead campaign. Then from Vanilla to Wrath didn’t we get to know Sylvanas? I think I have that “Lament of the Highborne” toy on my characters. 
I’m not sure what they could do with Genn. He and his people also lost their homes and lots of loved ones.
I think the lack of empathy for Sylvanas fans might be due to people being more focused on the Night Elf fans since the Night Elves didn’t even get one cinematic despite being the victims of the Burning of Teldrassil.
The potential of being used for a “religion bad” message is only one of the problems I had with the villain-batting of Yrel and her group. It is poorly written, out of character, whitewashes a war criminal and ignores a big swathe of the lore. I’m surprised you say you agree with me about this leaning into an atheist agenda (a concern but not my only one) given some of the things you said to - and about - me on a thread about that very topic, such as;
What changed?
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Through your last Light thread and the discourse around the New atheist movement, I got new clarification on your target, instead of a strawman in the Light. Recontextualizing your attacks on atheism and the “radical left” for the political movements and not the WoW story itself helped me see your position a lot better.
My only real issue was the fact that you used the Light as a strawman for Christianity. It made it hard to be critical of the Light without being critical of Christianity. I still think that they should be mutually exclusive and to not continue to make these strawman arguments. We can be critical of the Light without criticizing faith. Does that make sense? I’m sorry if I came off in a hostile way previously.
Personally I would like to see Sylvanas gone from the story. Her story has been wrecked. At this point thet are merely handwaving. She is as detrimental to the forsaken going forward at the moment as Calia.
They are probably not going to remove her. She has at least some perceived market value. They also have some vaguely conceived notion of a new era of wow going forward. In that era it appears given their tale telling styles we will be lead by this mousekateeresque collection of heroes/self inserts in combating cosmic forces. Sylvanas will probably join this troop from time time.
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What is your basis for saying this? Sylvanas’s entire story up until BfA and Shadowlands has been how in control of every situation she has always been, and BfA and Shadowlands has shown that to be a farce, and to have always been a farce (as much as it pains a loyalist like myself to admit).
We’re back to Schrodinger’s Sylvanas…so evil and genius that she’s always two steps ahead…so incompetent and feckless that even the Jailer manipulated her.
Anti-Sylvanas types are never satisfied. Even if Tyrande cut her head off (she won’t) you would still complain there wasn’t enough blood.
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