The discussions of how complex specs and rotations have gotten, at least to me, speaks to a larger problem that WoW dealt with quite poorly many years ago.
This game has 39 specs, spread among 3 roles, across 13 classes. The pearl clutching fear players of this game has against h o m o g e n i z a t i o n means that those 39 specs had better play in vastly different ways from each other or else the tears will flow since if classes play too similarly to each other, then it comes down to which one is just stronger in any situation.
So Blizzardâs solution was just to make each spec play as vastly different from every other spec as possible, and overtime that means adding more complexity on top, because thereâs only so much you can do to keep adding more stuff to classes without them starting to bleed together, and thatâs the biggest sin of all.
Add to the all the other BS that comes to playing WoW, and there isnât really a solution to all this. You canât make the classes simpler because nobody likes having toys taken away. But continuing down this path of complexity weâre going to get to a point where itâs like Yu-Gi-Oh and itâs 5 paragraph card descriptions.
The time to worry about âis are game getting to complexâ was years ago. Far too late to start trying to fix it now.
In an RPG its kind of a given that character classes should not step on each otherâs toes.
Fighter players in DND wouldnât be very happy if Paladins suddenly got action surge, because that is a fighter exclusive feature and is part of what makes playing a fighter appealing.
The takeaway I get from your post is that you have this idea that classes are just flavor sources for abilities, and that itâs irrelevant what uniqueness your class has as long as it adheres to the rule of cool.
To share an infamous quote, âYou think you want that, but you donât.â
Because if every class has action surge, then the next logical step is take the class that bonks the big bad on the head the hardest.
Iâm playing death knight right now. Nobody wants me because I am an emo-flavored warrior that doesnt bonk the big bad on the head the hardest.
Making classes closer to one another in function doesnt increase diversity, it will reduce it. Players, given the opportunity, will optimize the fun out of your game as much as they possibly can.
The answer to that is kit diversity. Unique function or utility. There is room for classes that just bonk really hard and donât do anything else in pve (WoW rogues should do the most damage given optimal play, full stop), but I dont think its unreasonable to make class choice both meaningful for the player and desirable in a group setting.
But you canât just ask me to not play the spec I enjoy just because Blizzard made it turbo complex.
I play at high end M+, yes, but I also like the aesthetic and fantasy of Arcane. Itâs really cool!
I just think that introducing complexity in a version of the game like Classic was definitely warranted, but in our current version is getting excessive, bordering on toxic to the game
And yes, I understand that this is a spec by spec problem, but Iâm not the only spec or person complaining. A lot of outlaw rogues are saying this too.
The higher you go up in keys (as an example) the more you have to use buttons that most people donât realize. A perfect example is Morchie on high tyrannical keys. As a mage, you have to pick up both ring of frost and mass polymorph so you can cc the adds that you stack in the middle, since the dot they put out from hitting a trap might be survivable in lower keys (ie 24s and below), but not on higher keys (27 tyr and above).
The problem with trying to stick the good olâ âit works in TTRPGâ argument, at least to me, is that this isnât a TTRPG. Again, we have 39 specs, attached to 13 classes.
Thereâs an insane amount of stuff that has to go into these specs that are competing against each other. None of the classes should play similarly to each other. Then none of the specs can play similarly to not only their classes specs, but to the other specs of the other classes. When a class has multiple dps specs, those specs most also play different while also having access to some or most of the same toolkit. Then after all that and likely more, you have to take into account balancing between those specs to try and keep things somewhat balanced.
Like I said, itâs just not possible with how WoW is designed to avoid complexity. It was destined to happen with how they designed their classes. The only way I can think of to avoid this kind of complexity would be for each class to only have 1 playstyle, and then that would have allowed each of the classes to be completely different but still simple.
Which is again, something that WoW was not designed for.
The problem is these simple specs shouldnât outperform harder specs. Maybe something like a 5% damage difference so players of all sorts can compete, but none of this ârework into a 5% gain over harder classes.â
There needs to be a reason after all why that class is harder.
Iâd go as far to say the low of an easy class is higher than the low of a hard class. So an easy class can do 70%-90% of top damage whereas a hard class can do 60% to 100%.
I actually think this could be resolved by mass polling.
Hereâs my idea: on one Tuesday, you force every person in the game who plays a spec to answer the following questions in game:
What spec do main/know best (can only pick 1)?
What kind of content do you mostly participate in (multiple selections possible, ie M+, raiding, achievement hunting, etc.)?
Of that content, what is the most important to you (single answer only, ie M+ only for me)?
What do you think of the following statements and which do you agree with the most:
I think my spec is too simple and would like new buttons
I think my spec is too hard and would like some pruning
I think my spec is just right
I think my spec is just right, but some spells are redundant/could be removed/replaced
comment box
Then when Blizzard makes a decision, they can use polling data to back up their decision. If players hate it, poll again after the change (couple of months after) and change accordingly.
No because you can only answer this once per account.
Sure the mad people who have several accounts have several votes, but idk how worth it that is relative to the literal tens of thousands of players playing their spec
My beef with Outlaw isnât the number of buttons or the complexity. Itâs the unforgiving nature of the spec. Between the Eyes .03 seconds after your stealth buff wears off and GG.
Letâs not forget Vanish is now a DPS cooldown. That doesnât feel wrong at all.
Also, if weâre being completely real here, the core problem with specs nowadays is Blizzardâs laziness in managing them. DF is nothing more than a sloppy carry over from SL and they left it for us to figure out.
The reworks are great but who asked for Discipline to be neutered? I greatly dislike the changes and by no means ever thought it was truly that hard. If anything, it was the perfect line between too hard and too easy. Playing it well felt so good, now itâs a joke.
In this very thread, there are people saying Arcane isnt complex/shouldnt get changed even though they push no higher than 3.1k io or AoTC only.
Of course if you barely push at that level arcane is fine. Hell, any spec is fine at that level; you could run 3 aff locks and time keys.
But when you start having to use mass poly just to AoE cc mobs in AD to prevent casts because your DH ran out of silences, or when you have to specifically save your GInvis and ice cold on tyr in Rise just to duo soak the dividing strike so your group doesnt die and thus dont have those defensives for the rest of the fight, you will know complexity. When you have to poly a mob while trying to position for a boss mechanic (ie incorp on tyr while trying to position the triangle slam), while trying to do DPS to not have that fight last 5 minutes; you will know complexity, even with simple specs (let alone difficult ones)
When you have players like Venruki; literal multi Rank 1 PvP title holder saying that a spec is complex, itâs probably too complex. Players commenting otherwise are simply not pushing content that requires the complexity.
Sure I can press my buttons wrong, or just never use Nether tempest, and just not use Siphon storm, but if you want to do damage, which you need in higher end content, you will meed to do the rotation correctly, and if the rotation is too hard, then the playerbase will suffer.
You would have to pick one I guess; but you can always comment on the other one jn the comment box
Wow was 100% designed to be comparable to a tabletop game. Almost every rpg is. Thereâs literally hundreds subclasses in 5e, but there are around 40 in the base module for the 12 main classes. There is role overlap but only self-contained among the different subclasses.
you cant expect a million others to give up something they enjoy for your personal preferences.
if a majority wants it changed, fineâŚbut I think all the screaming about the dumbing down of the game that made them make it more complex tells us that the majority of players dont like overly simplistic.
The problem with the first round of âpruningâ was they did it to address class utility footprints creeping. Things like warlock curses and maintenance buffs were dropped, but those donât add to the minute-to-minute complexity of specs.
Which is different than the kind of complexity that people complain about today. The burn windows and cooldown syncing and buff and debuff management required to even get 1/2 of a classes performance out is staggering and off putting.
Absolutely similar, but if I had to boil it down, people want complexity with regard to class utility, things like having a slow, a stun, a mortal strike effect, etc. but people donât want that much complexity when it comes to the global by global decision making.
Because âcomplexityâ is subjective, we need a metric. A good overall metric, I would think, is the variance between a 25 parse, a 50 parse, a 75 parse, and a 100 parse. Imho, that should be a curve that decreases in attitude as it goes up (but never hits zero, it absolutely should go up, just less than linearly). Right now, this curves upward. Thatâs not good, (my opinion), as it just further separates people into âus vs themâ. Casuals vs noobs.
I think the way Iâd approach it is look at classes with the highest variance first, lay out all the stuff they need to track, and start combining thing. Like they did with disc priest, for example. They didnât really âremoveâ anything, just combined stuff to make it less likely to make a mistake.
one of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesnât belong