What is wrong with surv atm?

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Fair enough. Although this would pretty much be what I’m getting at.

I can’t speak for everyone ofc, but with gameplay and fantasy, having access to a playstyle on a thematic level that fits the intended prior fantasy, makes all the difference.

For example:

Wildfire Bomb - is a ranged ability that deals DoT over a short window, sure.
But is it designed like Explosive Shot was? No.
Is it based on the theme of using a ranged weapon? No.

The concept necessarily excludes ranged weapons from core mechanics, requiring no specific weapon. Raptor Strike/Arcane Shot are analogs, as are Carve/Multi-Shot. Every other damaging ability would work regardless of what weapon you have equipped. This HAS to be the case for a combined spec to work.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Oh, you intend to keep this along with Serpent Spread? I mean…sure, it technically works. Although, wouldn’t it be a bit redundant to have a 3-target cleave talent for SrS + another one that is a 5-target cleave/applier? You did not specify which talent that was to be replaced by Serpent Spread but…

Also, if most of the abilities you have that are used fairly frequently, if most of them automatically apply SrS, then what would be the point of having SrS as a separate ability? Note that I want SrS to be it’s own ability. Not like what they did with it in WoD(where Arcane Shot automatically applied it on ST).

Which is why they are separate talents geared around different numbers of cleave targets. MM and BM have talents like that already, and I’d guess most other class specs so as well.

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Attempting to balance the idea of using either melee weapons or ranged ones, within the same spec, I would say puts us waaay to close to what was happening with Feral before they split it into two separate specs. And yes, in the case of Feral it was a matter of managing different combat roles. But even though we are here talking solely about dps, ranged vs. melee is still far from the same thing.

I agree, which is why I think a 4th spec is the better option and I support that whenever it comes up. That said, the fantasy of SV using any tools available to survive is the entire point of the concept of a combined spec, and that includes a wide variety of weapon options.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Adreaver-undermine

This HAS to be the case for a combined spec to work.

Depending on whether the individual abilities are actually themed around using weapons as “co-dependants” or not, yes. But that would essentially only make weapons into an aesthetic difference/visual variable.

I don’t think this is the right approach to spec design in this game.

@Adreaver-undermine

Which is why they are separate talents geared around different numbers of cleave targets. MM and BM have talents like that already, and I’d guess most other class specs so as well

Sure, my question was mostly towards why you specifically wanted 2 separate talent options, both focusing on doing the same thing with the same ability, with the only real variable being the max number of targets you can use it against.

@Adreaver-undermine

I agree, which is why I think a 4th spec is the better option and I support that whenever it comes up.

Have noticed

@Adreaver-undermine

That said, the fantasy of SV using any tools available to survive is the entire point of the concept of a combined spec, and that includes a wide variety of weapon options.

Fair enough, although I would continue to argue that you should not opt to completely remove entire playstyles(specs) only to then later add selected parts of them back into other, still existing, specs.

Both for the reason of how the various specs are not the same, they each have their own distinct fantasy and theme, and because it also severely limits the potential for adding further depth to either fantasy, if merged.

I also noticed your comment earlier in the other thread:

@Adreaver-undermine

@Khearsa-trollbane

If anything, they should just add the 1-2 spells back as talents in MM

MM doesn’t want them. SV was it’s own thing, and needs to not be shoehorned into MM.

Don’t get me wrong, I very much agree that RSV should NOT be a part of MM. Just like you said there. RSV was it’s own thing, with it’s own unique fantasy, thematic approach, and mechanical play.

But if you actually think that RSV had a proper fantasy and theme + niche of it’s own, why even opt for merging it into another spec at all?

Sure, you can argue that SV is themed around using every tool available in combat, which can ofc include the ability to opt for using ranged weapons. I would just argue that any work towards the hybrid angle for SV should be done with a theme specific to SV in mind, and not as a way to vaguely reference what was the former SV spec in there.

[Gidemon-lightninghoof]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Attempting to balance the idea of using either melee weapons or ranged ones, within the same spec, I would say puts us waaay to close to what was happening with Feral before they split it into two separate specs

Except that these days the weapon itself is a bit moot, as proven by the fact that the melee hunter has very few melee abilities. That most ranged classes wield only melee weapons (making the exception for wands). You can build a coherent spec focusing on the damage and utility abilities, making most of them weapon independent.

One row of the talent tree can have a choice that includes a melee focused option, a ranged focused option or murder of crows (just so people dont feel tempted by the third option).

It CAN be done.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Gidemon-lightninghoof

Except that these days the weapon itself is a bit moot, as proven by the fact that the melee hunter has very few melee abilities.

MSV is not designed like melee-specs normally are.

@Gidemon-lightninghoof

That most ranged classes wield only melee weapons (making the exception for wands).

Caster specs have little use for their actual weapons beyond using them as stat sticks. It’s not a comparison worth doing.

@Gidemon-lightninghoof

You can build a coherent spec focusing on the damage and utility abilities, making most of them weapon independent.

Ofc you can.

The whole point is that the idea of collecting and wielding actual weapons is a big part of the fantasy, and immersion, that comes with this game.

Remove that and it literally means nothing.

You can create a spec without weapons altogether. Animate all abilities individually to display a weapon when you use them.

The point is that you shouldn’t.

[Gidemon-lightninghoof]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Remove that and it literally means nothing.

It’s literally just ability animations. You dont have to remove it. You just need to figure out animations that make it seem like you are using the weapon for the ability. If you are going to have 4 specs otherwise, you can save yourself some effort and just make a separate set of animations for the melee guy and the ranged guy.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Gidemon-lightninghoof

You dont have to remove it. You just need to figure out animations that make it seem like you are using the weapon for the ability.

Sorry, not following here…

Are you saying that they should keep weapons for us to equip but they should not be used with ability animations but rather each ability should have a distinct animation including a separate weapon model?

[Gidemon-lightninghoof]

@Ghorak-laughing-skull

Are you saying that they should keep weapons for us to equip but they should not be used with ability animations but rather each ability should have a distinct animation including a separate weapon model?

No. What Im saying is that one of the development limitations that inspires limiting weapon types is flashy ability animations. Over the years they have moved away from just using “2h special” for an ability and instead they have given it an iconic and flashy moba style special effect and character animation. Thats why granting BRM monks dual wielding came with changing blackout strike to blackout kick. It saved them from needing to make two flashy ability animations.

Now if one was debating 4th spec or talented option for melee weapon SV, you are already assuming that you will need separate weapon animations.

It would be more efficient (and therefore more realistic) to fit melee hunter into a spec (i think SV is the best fit thematically though I know BM is popular from a nostalgic RTS perspective) than it would be to give MSV its own spec, especially considering that we’ve established that both the devs, and the community agree that it is very niche.

To do so, without trying to pretend that I can nail down the mechanics and balance here and now, you could build a versatile spec with a strong survivalist/commando theme. The SV hunter could be built around the idea that he/she uses many tools, and his/her animal companion to devastate the enemy, often slipping behind enemy lines to sow chaos in the rear ranks. He does this with a ranged weapon or a melee weapon, and a plethora of traps and ingenious devices.

The talent for melee or ranged could be mongoose bite and explosive shot. Both should be tied into the rest of the kit somehow. Wing clip and serpent sting should use generic melee and ranged weapons, a hatchet for wing clip and the mini crossbow for SS. Everything else would use the equipped weapon except when the ability is not a weapon based ability, a la bombs.

[Yura-area-52 (Yura)]

combining rsv and msv is such a dumb idea those specs played nothing alike.

it would be way easier to do with BM since the fantasy is already there and the playstyles are close enough to work. cd skill, rng generator, focus dump. drop the corny crossbow arrow for bestial wrath resets and people can RP rexxar and stop wasting an entire spec.

[Gidemon-lightninghoof]

@Yura-area-52

combining rsv and msv is such a dumb idea those specs played nothing alike.

This is true. I am not suggesting bringing back RSV as was. Im suggesting making SV a ranged spec with a melee option.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Gidemon-lightninghoof

Now if one was debating 4th spec or talented option for melee weapon SV, you are already assuming that you will need separate weapon animations

I mean…yeah. It’s a fantasy world built with the idea that weapons are out there to obtain and wield.

And naturally, if you obtain weapons to be used in combat, isn’t it then reasonable to think that a certain spec within our class should be built around using said weapon(s)? Incl abilities etc.

Imagine a warrior wielding a giant axe, but it always stays on his back because someone decided that he should not be using it. But rather, he should attack in ways that can be done both up close but also from afar.

And for what? Just so that someone who isn’t actually interested in the theme/fantasy of a brutish berserker, and the gameplay that fits thematically, can feel that they want to play the spec?

@Gidemon-lightninghoof

I am not suggesting bringing back RSV as was. Im suggesting making SV a ranged spec with a melee option

Herein lies the problem.

People are asking for RSV because they want RSV. They don’t want MSV but reworked into sort-of-a-ranged-but-also-melee hybrid/mix.

I’m sure there are those that would be okay with playing MSV if it played like/was designed with the above in mind. But that’s not at all the same thing as asking for RSV back.

Note that when I’m asking for RSV, I’m very much aware of how we can’t get it back exactly as it was in WoD, or MoP, or…
I’m asking for a spec that is built on what was the core of RSV along with additional elements and functions such as a complete set of talents, so that the spec can fit the modern game.

[Gladewolf-medivh]

@Gidemon-lightninghoof

This is true. I am not suggesting bringing back RSV as was. Im suggesting making SV a ranged spec with a melee option.

You know…like ALL HUNTERS used to be before the fix it till it’s broke campain began…we used to have a mana bar for pete’s sake…

[Bepples-barthilas]

Focus is better than mana.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

@Bepples-barthilas

Focus is better than mana

Very much so.

For several reasons.

[Beníto-emerald-dream]

For me, it is my pet constantly dying.