Isn’t it more or less the other way around, especially with Anduin leading the Alliance?
I don’t get that feeling at all playing Horde. I don’t think I have since Wrath of the Lich King and Garrosh’s rise, in fact. I wish I did, but at this point I feel like if the Tauren and Blood Elves, hell, even Forsaken wanted into the Alliance, they’d be accepted. They’re more outcasts by choice, right?
I’m often told that the Alliance rejects them out of prejudice but I don’t see that.
I mentioned this in a different thread.
Alliance isn’t just Anduin. It isn’t even just the leaders. It’s nations of different people. It’s much more larger than the Horde, pupolation-wise.
They might be accepted de-jure and would be legally allowed to live in Stormwind, but that doesn’t mean everyone will suddenly like them and accept them. It’s kiiinda like saying that there’s no racism anymore because laws don’t discriminate.
Anyway, the story does a poor job at showing us that many want the Horde gone. I agree. It should be doing a better job. The WoT hinged on it, but it left many people confused, because the game makes it seem like the Alliance just desperately wants to be friends but can’t (except for Graymane)
There is no reason for the Horde AND the Alliance to exist at this point, except very contrived ones.
None of the races are allowed to have grievances to actually dislike the other faction, so what’s the point of even keeping the factions around? Aside from faction wars, their existence serves no purpose.
That’s true, but the Horde wouldn’t accept the Alliance, either. The text I’m taking, obviously, is from the SL character creation description of the Horde. But doesn’t the Alliance also exist in a “hostile world that wants to destroy them?” What’s the difference, there?
That one is increasingly amusing to me especially now. We have so many genuine reasons to want the Horde gone from this world and none of them are based on race.
Alliance is stronger and they’re not “savages” shrug.
Some of it is just the enemies they face. Kul Tirans in Durotar and the Barrens. Enemy Trolls and Naga in the Echo Isles. Quillboar in Mulgore. Scarlet Crusade in Tirisfal. The world is itself a dangerous place and they strength themselves by working together. Not even getting into the world threats they band against like Old Gods.
I find it unlikely many would find acceptance in the Alliance, at least not without a lot of time or suffering. Tauren, maybe. But they’d be ditching their friends. The Blood Elves were already rejected by the Alliance before and have questionable at times as to who they can trust.
It was more appropriate in Vanilla, in that the orcs, tauren and trolls all had threats in their immediate starting zones (or very close to) that wanted to wipe them out, and each race was going through the initial struggles of establishing themselves in a new world (less so the tauren). But at this point it’s more of a meme - the “hostile world” has been more than generous with the Horde.
It’s particularly egregious in the Forsaken starting zones. The idea that all their conflicts are predicated on the notion that the Alliance wants to see them driven from Lordaeron. Not the fact that all humans on the subcontinent (Alliance-aligned or not) are on the receiving end of a campaign of ethnic cleansing, nor the fact that Sylvanas and the Horde launched an unprompted, ultimately pointless war of aggression against the then-nuetral nation of Gilneas - nevermind the issues surrounding human experimentation, mental ‘reconditioning’ and chemical warfare, nor the initial diplomacy between the Alliance and undead that ended in the Alliance army betrayed and massacred.
Conversely, the Alliance itself only exists because of external threats seeking to destroy the faction’s member-nations. It, more than the Horde, is an outcome of a hostile world.
It’s absolutely the other way around, it always has been. The Orc’s still going around killing in Ashenvale even though they were allowed to use lumber, Gilneas, Theramore, WoT, etc. That not to say the Alliance is absolutely innocent but the destroy the other faction thing has always been from the horde.
Not exactly. The Forsaken were rejected and the Blood Elves spurned but the tauren just met the Orc’s first and bonded with them. Although they’ve known the Kaldorei longer.
Because with the exception of the Forsaken, as a whole it’s not true. Garithos caused major problems in the beginning for the Sindorei but I think could have been shoved based on the fact that they recived aid from Tyrande. But of course Blizz had to do the spying thing.
But had Jaina not done the purge of Dalaran, the Sindorei would be with the Alliance, so probably the Nightborne too. As for the Tauren, the Horde needs them. They balance out some of their more hot headed members and with their connection to the Cenarion Circle and mow Anduin, it provides a way to bring the two sides together if need be.
Well, it starts with the first and second war.
Hyped up on demon blood, the Orcs committed some extreme atrocities and laid waste to much of the world. After the blood frenzy subsided, they were left with the weight of the decisions they didn’t fully make. No amount of “I’m sorry” is going to fix that and the concentration camps were evidence of that. With no way home (and the one time it was open, they couldn’t remain on the account of the planet slowly dying), the Orcs strive to carve their way out on this planet.
The Trolls have long been butting heads with the mortal races of the world. The Orcs just fell in with them.
For the Forsaken, the Forsaken have had the displeasure of being risen into undeath and even once free, their former countrymen turned arms against them and thought them monsters. On top of occupying their old homes - much to the survivors of Lordaeron’s displeasure, who thought themselves the rightful inheritors of their kingdom - there was the added threat of hostilities in their formative days, when they were sending diplomats to both the Horde and the Alliance, only for those who made the travel to Stormwind never returned. It’s been game on between them and most of the world for awhile now.
I think the only ones who weren’t under the crosshairs were the Tauren and the Blood Elves. The Tauren owed much to the Horde for springing them from the perils of the Centaurs and fell in with the Horde to both survive in a hostile world and offer their assistance for aid given.
The Blood Elves were rallied Kael’thus and needed allies in their lonely spit of land in northern Eastern Kingdoms- who better to be good neighbors than the Forsaken and, by extension, the Horde they’re rallied in.
Although the armies of the Alliance and Horde have grown enough in strength to stave off war (for the most part) by deterrence of strength and things have seen less dangerous between the two kingdoms, the danger hasn’t really left, with the forces in Durotar and the Barrens being a firm message that, if they could take military action, they would.
If you’re looking for more recent acts of aggression, the Alliance attempts to colonize the Western Plaguelands- a territory in the literal back yard of the Forsaken- and move in an army to Andorhal to try and claim it. That’s just a sampler.
This isn’t to say the opposition doesn’t have some valid grievances, but, there is no other option for the Horde. Survive and thrive, or bend the knee and die. The world they find themselves in is very much not safe to them.
EDIT: Oops. Made some 4 AM typos.
As others mentioned, it was more prominent in Vanilla.
Post Wrath of the Lich King however, I’d argue at this point the only ones still threatening the Horde are the ones who are actively antagonized by the Horde i.e. the Alliance.
Every neutral faction on Azeroth has no issue with the Horde. Most of the Horde is actually very stable nations in their own rights and exert enough political power world wide that they the only threat left to them is the Alliance…whom they almost pathologically can’t help but antagonize the moment the chance arrives. And before you say anything, the Alliance does the exact same. The idea that the Alliance is a coalition to protect the Azeroth and her people should have a asterisk next to it that clarifies “protect Azeroth from the Horde” and will also pathologically attack the Horde without thinking about it.
So basically you end up in a hilariously stupid situation where both the Horde and the Alliance only exist to fight the other. Don’t let anyone tell you it’s because the world hates them or it’s to protect the people blah blah blah. There are other people and factions that can do it far better and with likely random loss of life.
Is it still fair to include this? It did happen but the current horde isn’t responsible. Would it not be more correct to put that directly in the Orc’s?
Agreed. That said I don’t think they were remorseful in the concentration camps. I don’t think that came until Thrall was leading them, or at least not until Gul’dan was gone and the lost, which I guess if around the same time. Other than that everything said was dead on.
I don’t think so. They were high on demon blood. They barely controlled themselves and Orgrim wasn’t happy about what they were doing, but didn’t see any other way.
The orcs didn’t deserve all the bull that happened and this is the hill I will die on. If Velen hadn’t landed on their heads, they would probably still be living their primitive life on Draenor. No offense to Velen, he was in a very bad situation too.
There was an orc character in one of the older novel who was particularly sore about the camps because of the humiliation and cruelty. That said, I don’t blame the humans for being cruel, it makes sense to me. I’d be cruel too. I also don’t blame the orcs for being sore. I think both those things are natural.
This is was racial conflict worked much better in Vanilla than it does now. Now it’s… I guess Blizz is trying to preserve the status quo, but I don’t know how they can keep dragging it.
They were on demon blood but, later Ogrim had a choice. He knew they had been sold out and that they were not in total control but instead of going back to their eotld which was still thriving at that point they continued their war path and destroyed Stormwind. What was the point of the war once they knew what was done to them?
I agree, they didn’t deserve it now did the Dreanei want to put them in danger. It was a lose lose situation.
I’ll look into that novel.
It’s so old and over done at this point. Most really should have been the end especially since the next 2 expansions required the factions working together.
Orgrim wasn’t happy with mindless bloodshed that his people were engaged in. But he didn’t see a way out other than finishing what was already started. He says as much. As soon as he gained power he dealt with the individuals that were selling them out to the Legion. He kept Guldan alive, apparently because they needed him or smth, but point is, he cared for his orcs and his plan was to get the war over and done with so they can settle on this new world and forget about it, hoping that the fel-induced bloodlust would be quenched. The Horde was starting to eat itself from inside otherwise. Maybe he could’ve made a better decision, but we’re presented with this.
Given the Hordes track history and being a mostly being a primitive invasive species of races the Alliance would happily wipe us out if they could comfortably get away with doing it.
The only reason the Horde still exists as it is, is because killing off more than half of your playing fan base isn’t good for business.
He absolutely could have made a better decision. They could have returned to Dreanor. They never wanted this war in the first place. They were used as pawns. I not saying they should have explained that to the humans but continuing down the war path eventually shattered the Horde. Doomhammer had an opportunity to kill Gul’dan, take his people back home, and destroy the dark portal but he chose war. Neither were great choices as leaving would have cause problems within the ranks but one was clearly better than the other. I think he realized that later on.
What I find strange is that he was willing to talk to the trolls and form alliances, but not humans. Except SIKE he was willing to talk to humans when one kingdom betrayed the others and basically sold them out in exchange for a truce.
So why ally with trolls and some humans but not others? I know it’s because the first game is literally called “orcs vs. humans”, but it still feels kinda weird.
I agree with what most others have said concerning the Vanilla horde.
I believe a big part of it is the horde suffers from the actions of the rest of their race. Forest trolls invade human lands? All trolls bad. Undead desroyed lordaeron? All undead are bad, including the forsaken. Orcs invaded stormwind over 30 years ago? Orcs born today are held to the same degree and are just as evil.
Most of the horde races have prejudice and are lumped in with their race in the eyes of the alliance.
Although, most of that has gone out the window since the factions started working together. In fact, has that description of the horde been used recently? It’s not so accurate for the horde anymore, neither is it for the alliance.
Slight correction. Unless something has changed in the lore, everyone was aware that Draenor was dying before they blew it up.
Going back through the Dark Portal was not really a viable option.