Lets analyze and talk about everything in her recent guest appearance.
Paraphrasing: Control of our fate will at last be possible with the Jailor? We will tear it(I assume the structure of SL) all down.
How will we be able to control our own fate when this man just said no one leaves the Maw. Something is just no right.
Paraphrasing: Death is unfair
I’ve(Deathisfinal; don’t know where she went on my list of toons) been preaching about how her death was unfair due to the fact that Arthas permanently(and irreversibly) mangled her soul to a life hating banshee for a very long time now. She died and instead of her soul being restored to its whole self and going to wow heaven she ends up in WoW Hell.
Considering her intention in EoN was retconned; what are the chances that she recognized this flaw in SL and has since vowed to rectify the system.
I’m super happy that she confirmed that Death is unfair but is she talking about her personal death or is she coocoo for coacoa puffs?
Is this her frank conversation? I’ve also wanted to know who she’s talking to; particularly is it someone that we would never guess? I would love that.
Some has said she “looks” heroic in the video. How does that look lol? Does her new song “free will” que in the background lol?
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Certainly, between her dialogue in the expac cinematic, the story trailer, the OST track name, and general dialogue to the loyalist in BFA, they are playing up an angle where Sylvanas sees herself as a liberator of some kind.
- Is this angle real? Or is it a total fabrication and this isn’t even a consideration in the story? Who knows. Remember when Jaina was a warbringer? Remember when Teldrassil was a mystery?
- Presuming this isn’t a big red herring and Sylvanas actually believes this, how much will the narrative credit her as being ‘valid’ about this? By that I mean, will the story present this as an insane perspective, or a reasonable/valid (purely in the logic sense) belief?
- If it is presented as valid, will they try to paint this as an anti-heroic, heroic, or villainous objective? I don’t believe they can, technically or narratively, leave this up the in the air in any practical way.
As they have since Legion, Blizzard seems to be playing the big reveal of ‘What Does Sylvie Want?’ close to their chest, and clearly they think it is a huge narrative masterstroke because they constantly tease out these little bits of information related to it, which is certainly deliberate. They are building a lot of tension, in a meta-narrative sense, around this detail. I have heard Droite’s theory that Sylvie is just a pawn for the Jailer and has been tricked into pursuing what she falsely sees as noble ends, which is plausible but just seems too cliche even for Blizzard (so, of course, it’s the best odds).
Edit: To add to the above, if they go with the ‘Sylvanas Was Tricked Masterfully Into Doing Bad Things Because She Thought It Was For a Greater Good’, do they credit her as heroic for the attempt or mock/condemn her manipulation? This is a tricky one to call, Blizz has played it both ways in the past.
I find it hard to conceive of a good reveal for this shadowy master plan. Certainly it would be my preference for the revelation to demonstrate Sylvanas as having heroic intentions, because I am happy to spend another expansion laughing open-mouthed, wheezing, directly into the face of Tyrande - but that would hardly be thematically nourishing.
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Sylvanas is either incredibly insane or brainwashed. I think the Jailor has tricked her and she’ll be punished.
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I mean, I get to extent, all the afterlives that we have seen so far kinda suck.
Seem to artificial created environment, made to stripe away the anima form the dead, but In different ways.
But the messaging of this is unreliability narrator, and generally untrustworthy.
Maybe if somebody else, had come with the message that the afterlives suck and that we’re going to free the souls from authoritarian Hell they were stuck in.
Then I would be all on board tearing the afterlives a new one.
Seems she migrated from just “Avoid my Afterlife at all costs” to seeing the entire Arbiter system as unjust and unfair for sending her to the Maw in the first place. So she’s going to tear the whole unfair system down. Which will I suppose also ensure she’s can never be imprisoned in the Maw again by default. She might even have a point if it weren’t just as likely that she was dragged into the Maw by the Jailor or her Primes and was only tricked into believing that was her eternity.
EDIT: Does she even know that souls can be stolen like that prior to the system breaking? Because I don’t know if she knew Heyla snagged Illidan’s soul from the Twisting Nether, and it still remains very unclear if she knew if the Jailor and Mueh’zala had a hand in stealing Jin’s soul to the Maw.
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I must admit, I am getting a villain vibe here from Sylvanas, more so than ever. She is acting like a full on Cult Recruiter at an airport. She seems to have shed a bit of her dour disposition, and seems almost excited. Relieved. Enthused. Which would seem like she totally embraced sadism and cruelty as not just a way to get things done, but a way to enjoy what you do.
However… maybe I am extracting meaning that is not there… but the words they used leave a little wiggle room. Sylvanas doesn’t say: “With the Jailor.” Or “Serving the Jailor.” She says: “Through the Jailor.”
Now… that could imply devotion… but it could also mean she just sees him as another disposable vessel for power that she needs to manipulate or destroy to achieve her goals.
I guess it’s always that way, with her.
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You do understand how camera angles and posing can determine tone, right?
There are ways to make characters look villainous and menacing. She got tons of it in BFA.
The shot in the trailor doesn’t.
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I would probably give her the benefit of the doubt here and say she more likely believes she found, finally “an end to her torment”. If she believes she not only found a method to eternally avoid her afterlife, but destroy the very system she seems to believe is to blame for her being sent to the Maw in the first place … it would explain her relief and enthusiasm. She see’s the world “As it really is” like any good nihilistic cultist does after all.
Which does make me think more than every she’s getting played. That she was not destined for the Maw at the end of ICC, but was merely convinced she was.
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I think that is possible. The Uther cartoon showed us that people can be taken to an afterlife that they may not be destined for, without the Arbiter being involved. It is possible that after she killed herself at Icecrown, the Valkyr took her to a scary afterlife in order to frighten her into believing what they wanted her to believe.
And then we have that toy in Darkshore, that mentions powerful Valkyr being able to dominate minds. We may find out Sylvanas was Mind Controlled at any point after she first met the Valkyr, or even by Helya, who was a pretty powerful Valkyr, and may still have some of that power.
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Her being played would also tie into that seemingly contradictory internal thoughts in BtS where she is cursing the Loa and Vol’jin for making her Warchief.
She doesn’t know that people can be stolen from their destined afterlife before the Arbiter system supposedly broke. She didn’t know Illidan was stolen by Helya from the Twisting Nether. She doesn’t know Arthas was chucked into the Maw without an Arbiter trial by Uther. She doesn’t know Vol’jin was stolen before he could reach De Otherside by Mueh’zala. The last fact making sense of why it is apparently still so hard to coax that information out of that Death Loa, even though revealing it now that Sylvie left should not have any effect; provided she already knows that is.
She was convinced her afterlife was hell, convinced that the system itself is flawed and put her there, and believes the only way to permanently avoid the prior and get back at the latter is to bring the whole unfair system crumbling down. She was given a convenient lie to push her in a convenient direction, and her being made Warchief was a tool to speed up her natural pace.
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To an extent her characterization makes sense, somewhat, the issue is of course how quickly it changed (again, retcons that try and say that Blizz ‘planned this since Wrath’ aren’t being taken into account here).
At the end of Wrath, Sylvanas had achieved her entire purpose, and so had the Forsaken, so she ends it all, finally thinking she can move on… but she can’t, because the Jailer interferes (or the Val’kyr initially tricked her). So her next goal is to live as long as possible. Even removing ‘Edge of Night’ it makes sense, she gains all this power and heft, because the leader of one of the most powerful factions in the world… and yet she’s still not in control of her own destiny. No matter what she does, no matter how much she’s changed or tried to fix or how many people she’s saved, she and everyone else will eventually be judged, and then sorted into afterlives like laundry.
From her point of view, it seems logical that ANYTHING would be better than that, and to give people free will in their afterlife is worth any crime in the living world, because the afterlife is eternal, while life is fleeting.
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That’s my main speculation about how the story will go and i think it is hinted ingame how and when it happened.
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Honestly, I think she’s fully in control of herself. But just like she’s done with her own tools she used and discarded, she’s been given a narrative (perhaps built on half-truths) that pushes her in a direction that is convenient for a 3P. She did this with the Forsaken constantly at this point, to help her maintain control and get them to act in ways functional for her on their own. No forcing them necessary, just a nice story and a gentle nudge. Thematically, she may be the victim of the same types of manipulations she’s famous for using on others. She’s the unwitting tool.
I don’t think she’s being mind-controlled. I do think however she’s being tricked. By someone who knew that if they fed her just the right type of Lie, it would get her to act in specific ways. Being as convinced of “The Truth” as she seems to be. She “Sees the world as it “really” is”.
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It all has to do with Xalatath and why she gave it to Blightcaller. Something involving the Jailor and Xalatath and the Black Empire.
That’s my guess.
I was getting WoD 2.0 vibes weeks ago from Shadowlands. Going through a portal to a foreign land, etc.
Now, I’m starting to get AU Grom vibes after seeing the story trailer. Another character manipulated by outside forces. I’m going to sit here and laugh if that is the road Blizz chooses to go.
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Oh, absolutely this is WoD2.0. Its a “Run away into another dimension with Old Lore Faces … to avoid the consequences of the last disastrous “Faction Conflict” expansion”. So, yeah, its very possible thats the way they’ll go. Then, while she may not survive like AU Grom did (though, if that guy is still alive he’s getting forcibly converted and super light tortured right now) … I highly doubt she’ll “go-out” as a villain. But I don’t think she’ll go out a “Hero” either.
Vengeance has always been a color that has suited Sylvanas very well. Her getting used, discarded, and realizing that, could at least make for some interesting storytelling. Though I can’t see her escaping this expansion “alive” if that’s the route they go. At most, she’ll “get a release from her torment”. Like she has always sort of wanted. She hated being Undead.
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My take on it is,
“Who is the Arbiter to judge where we go? We should go where we want in the Afterlife.” i.e. “I am above punishment or being forced into redemption and should be allowed to continue being evil into eternity.”
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Prior to now, I never bought this explanation at all. It seemed to evolve from headcanon to true canon just by popularity in the community, and it originally stemmed from those super creepy people that seemed to gain legitimate pleasure in reality at the thought of eternally torturing a fictional character. BeforeSylvanas, time and time again, puts herself on the frontlines of every battle she’s involved in, risking herself despite this supposed fear of death.
Fighting Malfurion despite probably dying? Frontlines of the battle of Lordaeron? The list is fairly extensive. No, I think Blizzard had a totally different plan for starting in Cata, and it just changed recently when Shadowlands was conceived of.
I take no pleasure in her suffering, but it was the motivation given to her in EoN. It was not, no matter how much people may want it, her starting to care for “Her People”. She was given no such incentive after she discarded them that should change her opinions on them. They ended that story as they began. Tools. Tools she may value. Tools with a new purpose. But Tools.
People also need to realize just truly how destructive to her original image EoN really was. It didn’t just set a tone, it completely recontextualized her entire relationship with “Her People” … her “Mongrel Race of Rotten Corpses” up until the fall of Arthas. Her being this caring leader of her people we once thought she was in WC3 and Vanilla was a mask she put on to get them to move in directions convenient for her and her objectives. She may care for them as an owner cares for a possession, but ultimately once their use was done … she was done with them. So people giving her the constant benefit of the doubt going into Cata (which functionally has her apparently condemning many to the afterlife she herself is so desperate to avoid) was … a little unwise.
She didn’t lead her people against Arthas screaming “For My Vengeance”. She didn’t command her people in Cata shouting “You’re all my Meatshield against my Hell”. She didn’t rally the troops at Lordaeron in BtS yelling “For ME!!!” She knows how to put on a show and get people motivated to fight for her. She has never been so transparent as many people wanted her to be.
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Sylvanas is one of the few Characters that if she got a Perma Death, it could be the best thing for her. Depending on how it happens. If she ends up being a hero and dies to save us all - it would be close to alot of what she wanted.
I know any Self Harm narrative needs to be dealt with cautiously, and she has suicide in her history, so having her “reward” be the peaceful oblivion she sought might be hard to navigate.
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