What if queueable M+ is the wrong question?

Community General Discussion
1

I’ve been following these discussions for years, and I think both sides keep arguing past each other. Some ask for queueable M+, while others explain why that wouldn’t work. I actually agree with the naysayers. Trying to force the current M+ system into group finder would probably fail. So what if we just made a Mythic progression mode designed specifically for group finder instead? The idea isn’t just to add a queue. It’s to redesign the surrounding systems with those objections in mind.

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The Idea: A separate Mythic progression mode that runs parallel to the current M+ system. Same dungeons, same mechanics, same scaling, same seasonal rotation. Designed specifically for group finder instead of premade groups. Current M+ remains completely unchanged.

Progression: No keys. Progress through dungeon tiers by successful completion. Beat the timer to unlock the next tier. Beat it by a significant margin to skip additional tiers. Minimum item level requirements still apply to progress through higher tiers.

Rewards: Same seasonal progression rewards as premade M+ up to the highest tier in the Great Vault. Progression stops here. Premade M+ continues beyond that point for pushing keys, higher ratings, achievements, mounts, etc. Great Vault credit for completion even if not timed.

Group Finder: Existing group finder behavior applies wherever possible. Queue with 1-5 players. Queue for any eligible dungeon and tier (random or specific). Role incentives when needed. Human players always take priority, but AI followers can temporarily fill gaps after long queue times and are replaced by players whenever possible. They exist simply to prevent queue collapse and keep runs alive, not make them easier. Designed to minimize time spent waiting and maximize time spent playing.

Gameplay: The challenge moves from “assembling the group” to “completing the dungeon.” Dungeon mechanics stay the same. Special action buttons provide required utility such as lust, battle rez, or dispels when a group composition would otherwise be missing them. Voice communication is optional, with existing chat and ping systems providing sufficient communication for this mode.

Leavers: Runs don’t end because one player leaves/disconnects. Vote kick, deserter penalties, and player replacement work similarly to existing group finder content. When a player leaves or is removed, the timer and combat pause until a replacement arrives. If no human player is available, an AI follower fills the role until one joins.

Rating: Separate from current M+ rating. Designed to measure progress within this system and prepare players for premade M+. Think of it as an onramp, not a replacement.

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Many players who’d enjoy M+ don’t participate because the biggest barrier isn’t the dungeon itself. It’s getting into one. So the goal isn’t to replace M+. It’s to give players a structured way to access and learn the dungeons, build confidence, and earn the core seasonal progression rewards before deciding whether they want to move into the current premade M+ system.

One last thought, many of the building blocks for a system like this already exist in WoW. Group finder, follower AI, special action buttons, vote kick, deserter penalties, tier based progression, and flexible matchmaking are all systems Blizzard has already developed. This proposal is less about inventing entirely new systems and more about combining existing ones in a different way.

4 Likes
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Stop trying to make queued m+ happen, it won’t happen. No matter the iteration people wouldn’t enjoy it and it would be toxic. Don’t lime your comp, just kick someone and replace them with no penalty. I’ll stick with doing keys how they are.

8 Likes
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thats a whole lot of backflips to justify the existence of something that has no reason to exist, no person who actually meaningfully does m+ thinks that making the group is the hard part

open your own group if you cant get into one yourself. go play some singleplayer rpg if thats too complicated. end of discussion

4 Likes
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Only bad players want queueable mplus

4 Likes
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I vote a big hard NO

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and this is where you lose me

make everything a ton easier. but same rewards

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I don’t think the content itself becomes easier, though. The dungeons, mechanics, scaling, timer, and progression are all still there. The proposal only changes how players get into the dungeon, not what they have to do once they’re inside. The only thing I’m really trying to make easier is the group formation process. I think myth track gear should come from completing appropriately difficult content, not from succeeding at group recruitment.

1 Like
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it does

allowing bots requires easier content

special action button for special buffs/abilities

same rewards. but now its easier

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The idea isn’t that AI should be good enough to carry groups. It’s that AI should be good enough to temporarily fill an empty role until another player joins. If the AI isn’t as effective as a human player, that doesn’t make the dungeon easier. If anything, it makes the run a little harder. That’s why I described it as existing to keep runs alive rather than make them easier.

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I think your idea is overly complicated. You don’t need the tier/item level locking.

Something like this with fewer tiers… can you guys imagine how many people would do this just for the vault slots? Let the dungeons drop the crests, and let the vault be the loot. (a whole lot of) People would do their 8 every week without fail.

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NPC followers are either good enough to do the content, or arent.

Once they are, they are good enough to carry.

Except that isnt how it works upon application. A bot is either good enough, or isnt. Its binary.

There is no communication. There is no learning. There is no growth. There is no adapting. So once you get a bot. Its either good enough to do the content, or it isnt.

If its not, then people complain until it is.

If it is, then there is little reason to seek a player.

Combine that with getting all the bonus action buttons a premade doesnt get, and now you have two areas where this queue system is easier content.

We arent even touching on why a tank or healer would ever participate. Which is always the real reason. A queue system is such an unrealistic idea, that a founding part of it is how far you will go to bribe others to participate out of charity.

3 Likes
12

The game is trending towards this being a moot point.

The vast majority of the issue is not queued M+ or timers. It’s accessibility to M+ level gear without actually putting in the work to be successful at M+.

For me this was one of the funner season to key. +10’s could be done without a massively annoying amount of melee exclusion dance dance, target switching from hoppers, and mandatory interrupting.

But even with this being a fun season the gearing was soooooooooooooooo easy I just kind got done with that and lost interest. Hell, got an alt to 285 and they haven’t even bothered to do every key at +10, only ten +10’s total and no raiding.

Time will tell if this is good for the game. Hard to give up the free stuff once you start getting it, so if it’s bad, reversing course will be very painful.

13

You are advocating for LFR m+. That is a hard no.

The simple reality is it should be ok for certain types of content to have only a manual grouping tool.

The solo players really should not have access to every level of content and every forum of reward. The basis of this game is multi-player not solo. Every step down the solo road diminishes the unique and best elements of the game.

There is no win-win compromise here. There is no “talking past each other “. Some content requires a headset and coordination and that is just fine. Some content is difficult enough that not everyone can do it. This is also just fine.

Stop trying to lower the bar to a place where everybody gets a trophy.

1 Like
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The right of bell curves won’t touch the queue and the extreme left of bell curves who slobber over the notion of a queue are collectively so trash tier at the game their collective incompetence would very quickly lead to the most REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEing of threads demanding the inherent unfairness of how hard the keys are and demand them nerfing. It’s a slippery slope where you give the inch and the mile happens as a natural consequence of the inch.

Actual right of the bell curve players don’t have issues getting into runs up to and even past the point where rewards stop mattering. It also demands the false assumption that one is owed a spot in a group as a basis of existing. You aren’t. You have your own key and can always fall back on the tried and true method of making your own group to guarantee your own run and spot in a group.

2 Likes
15

Not really. Mythic dungeon difficulty exists as a compromise to making it so Normal and Heroic dungeons can remain in each respective queueable state, where they have a 100% success rate and you can’t fail a dungeon run.

To make dungeons relevant PvE content again, that ensurance cannot be granted. Thus… a higher difficulty where mechanics are both relevant and lethal was required, ergo the introduction of Challenge Mode dungeons, which then became Mythic dungeons, which in turn is what M+ is built from.

You can’t make it queueable and trying to offer a “compromise” or the like … would be to add a compromise to the compromise. Which is a terrible thing to do; at that point it just makes more sense to remove the compromise and make dungeons relevant again by removing queueable PvE content altogether from the game (I don’t advocate for this by the way, but it makes more sense than to add a compromise to a compromise).

So… there’s not much “talking past each other”; there’s some people who understand what Mythic and M+ is, some folks who explain that a queueable system doesn’t work, and then there’s the people who want free mythic gear and thus they ask for M+ to be queueable.

So… yeah, sorry but folks aren’t talking past each other; some folks just refuse to acknowledge objective reality of why Mythic and M+ dungeons exist in the first place, because they want free gear.

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The AI would only be there when a player isn’t available. Once a player joins, the AI is removed, so it can’t carry the group through the dungeon. Also, the AI we have in WoW today is far from perfect. It pulls extra mobs, stands in bad spots, has pathing issues, and generally isn’t as effective as a competent player. I actually think having an AI temporarily fill an empty slot would be more of an added challenge rather than a perk.

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Not true. I’m a slightly above average player n I’d give it a shot. Some people start content late and find being ignored or declined for hrs a bit wasteful when it comes to the time they have to play.

“Join a guild.” Most have groups already and aren’t into new members joining them unless they need someone to fill, and even then unless your oi is above 3k they’d rather get someone that is from the grp finder.

“Play with Friends.” Idk about anyone else, but my friends no longer play and making new ones isn’t as easy as grabbing someone n tellin em that they are now friends with you.

1 Like
18

you said it would follow current group finding rules. which means the leader can opt not to search for a replacement

its either a detriment, and people complain until its better

or its better than the average player

if its a detriment, then you dont want it at all.

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I don’t think we’re disagreeing about whether difficult content should exist. I think difficult content absolutely should exist. Where we disagree is what the barrier should be. My proposal keeps the dungeon mechanics, scaling, timers, and progression, so this isn’t the same as LFR M+. A failure state can still happen if the timer expires or the group simply can’t complete the dungeon, just like in current M+. The only barrier I’m trying to reduce is the administrative one of assembling a group.

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You don’t have anything signifying that you’re above average.