What has happened to the player base?

[Varanus-norgannon]

I remember people literally popping CDs on Sha of Anger. When he was already at a point that he would die in 5 seconds. Seriously, wtf?

[Akston-area-52]

@Xiriel-grizzly-hills

To be fair, regardless of which certain developers had the final say on this or that, we do know for a fact which ones are very “raid or die” in their design philosophies, that’s never been a mystery and that’s never been very good for the game.

So we can say confidently Ion is not “raid or die”?

[Piprot-draenor]

@Hèrne-moon-guard

What happened is Ion and the folks in charge got the player base they’d cultivated for years by trying to push out anybody who does less than heroic raiding and M+, and, as it turned out… the playerbase they wanted are not only hypercompetitive and bad for the game’s growth, but also super poisonous to the MMO aspect of it too

100% this

[Akston-area-52]

@Piprot-draenor

100% this

but that contradicts all known facts?

Could you give me a break down on how delves, player housing, prey system, every single decision since Ion took over wasnt to help the “casual” playerbase?

People complain about Ion speaking with lawyer-ese. And speaking out of both ends.

Then come up with the most vaguely thought out complaints, because they know if they actually said anything of substance, their point would dry up

[Venivici-old-blanchy]

I agree with you on the no flying rant thing. WoD was the first expansion I took an extended break and the no flying was a big part of it. I’ve done that with every expansion that had a Pathfinder achievement. WoD was also when I went from pretty hardcore raider to casual. As a casual doing a lot of interacting with the world and less in instances, the no flying is a no go for me. I played all through Dragonflight, not only did we get flying but we got better flying. But the second tier of TWW, yeah I took a break, I hate that zone and once again, no flying.

[Spleen-gorefiend]

@Hèrne-moon-guard

FLYING, the biggest one WAS his fault

How was this Ion’s fault? Flying was brought in during the Burning Crusade to counter the terrible flight path systems we had. Blizz didn’t know at the time by them adding in flying, they could never take it away and it was here forever. Ion did not work for Blizzard until the summer of 2008 during Wrath where he was a DK dev. He became assistant game director in 2015 and then become the Game Director in late 2016. You can literally just Google that like I did.

[Xiriel-grizzly-hills]

@Akston-area-52

So we can say confidently Ion is not “raid or die”?

I think it’s always been pretty obvious where he stands but at the same time I really don’t want to argue with you about it because we both have our own ways of looking at things, and that’s okay to me.

[Akston-area-52]

@Xiriel-grizzly-hills

I think it’s always been pretty obvious where he stands but at the same time I really don’t want to argue with you about it because we both have our own ways of looking at things, and that’s okay to me.

Yes. Because of him making raiding worse. And constantly creating non raiding features, its clear he is not raid-or-die.

I understand you dont want to say your point of view, because then you would have to actually defend it.

And the one people hate doing here when they complain, is saying anything specifically (while arguing Ion is using lawyer-ese).

If you never say anything and leave it vague, it cant be shown you dont know what you are talking about

Implying Ion is “raid or die” takes a person to intentionally stick their head in the sand.

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

Selfie patch + no flying = GG At least Ashran was fun and garrison so it wasn’t all bad for casuals in WoD.

Super anti casual indeed lead to a huge drop in subs.

[Venivici-old-blanchy]

I used to kill all the NPC’s in the Crossroads for fun and I’d often times bring a group. It stopped horde leveling at low level and players would get pissed. Then they would go back to Orgrimmar and get in trade chat to let everyone know that the Alliance was attacking the Crossroads again and max level characters would start showing up and we’d fight it out. It used to be a thing back in the day if someone was doing the For the Alliance/Horde achievement that someone would get in trade chat and say “they’re attacking the king/warchief” and half the server would portal from Dalaran to go defend them. That part of the game is missing if you ask me. And all that was on a PVE server.

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

@Illidonkey-malganis

Just so you know, for your beloved “casual classic” the only way to get any gear in the game was to raid

Blue gear back then was and is better than most garbage epic drops in modern WoW because modern WoW uses the go go go mentality of seasons as the diablofication has made everything ultra hyper competitive and that is the current player base left. The auction house is littered with endgame epics no one wants to touch and their disenchant value is questionable.

Back in classic era when you looted an epic or disenchanted that epic it had GREAT value. And players valued blue gear and lower epic gear as it was worthwhile still. Kara epics were the stepping stone to raiding and in fact many players were happy with kara epics for an entire raid tier.

[Xiriel-grizzly-hills]

@Akston-area-52

I understand you dont want to say your point of view, because then you would have to actually defend it.

Only if I am trying to make people agree with me. Not if I don’t care what other people believe, which personally I don’t.

@Akston-area-52

If you never say anything and leave it vague, it cant be shown you dont know what you are talking about

People are free to believe this about me. It’s probably true in a lot of areas of life and lots of parts of this game as well (like the lore for example) and I’m okay with that. I don’t like arguing with people on the internet, that’s all.

[Liolang-daggerspine]

@Venivici-old-blanchy

I used to kill all the NPC’s in the Crossroads for fun and I’d often times bring a group. It stopped horde leveling at low level and players would get pissed. Then they would go back to Orgrimmar and get in trade chat to let everyone know that the Alliance was attacking the Crossroads again and max level characters would start showing up and we’d fight it out. It used to be a thing back in the day if someone was doing the For the Alliance/Horde achievement that someone would get in trade chat and say “they’re attacking the king/warchief” and half the server would portal from Dalaran to go defend them. That part of the game is missing if you ask me. And all that was on a PVE server.

I get the pvp thing…I get having fun fighting it out.

I dont get camp ganking the same player over and over…just pure petulant childishness
And I dont get killing quest NPCs over and over and over for spites sake.

[Akston-area-52]

Thats fine.

Just realize if you believe Ion is raid-or-die you are objectively wrong.

And it is only a matter of “perspective” if you intentionally close your eyes.

You claim you dont want to argue about it. But you initiated conversation about it. So like. Make up your mind.

[Piprot-draenor]

@Akston-area-52

delves

You are able to solo them but you can also do them with a group. Not sure how that’s a 100% casual or solo thing.

@Akston-area-52

player housing

Most players wanted this and this feature has literally nothing to do with gameplay. Again this isn’t just for casual players…

@Akston-area-52

prey system

I haven’t looked to far into this so I don’t know all the details. But from what I’ve seen this feature is more solo. I’m not sure how a single optional solo feature counts as “help the “casual” playerbase”. But seems optional.

@Akston-area-52

Because of him making raiding worse. And constantly creating non raiding features, its clear he is not raid-or-die

So any non raid feature is Anti raid? World questing is anti raid? Regular questing is anti raid? PvP is anti raid? Lorewalking is anti raid?

Pretty sure all these things are just optional content. Aside from add-ons being removed nothing affects your ability to raid.

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

@Akston-area-52

My dog got hit by a car in 1997

I bet it was Ion

[Brody-wildhammer]

And this is what we call moving the goal posts.

[Akston-area-52]

@Piprot-draenor

Pretty sure all these things are just optional content. Aside from add-ons being removed nothing affects your ability to raid.

Can you please explain to me how delves, the prey system, and player housing, and m+ are for raid-or-die hardcore players?

You are being so dishonest in your reply, i am not certain its worth continuing this conversation,

[Venivici-old-blanchy]

I definitely wasn’t doing it for spite, I was picking a fight with the Horde. On my server at the time there was a rogue that would constantly sneak into Stormwind and kill the npcs in the auction house back when there was only one. It was so frustrating that once again, half the damn server would show up to stop him until he left. I get your point, but I do miss that part of the game where the faction conflict was still partially player driven and we had actual faction pride and would fight it out.

[Xiriel-grizzly-hills]

@Akston-area-52

Just realize if you believe Ion is raid-or-die you are objectively wrong.

Maybe so. Who knows.

@Akston-area-52

You claim you dont want to argue about it. But you initiated conversation about it. So like. Make up your mind.

Well for me, a conversation and an argument aren’t the same thing. I like discussing stuff with other people, but if someone seems a bit heated or aggressive, I’m just not interested in having a discussion with them anymore. That’s all.