What exactly is so bad about Danuser's writing?

I would say his writing was like playing a mystery box game where everytime you thought you will finally get some answers to any of the questions being raised there was even more questions.
The “wait and see” was something the community was collectively losing their minds over, we waited and waited and saw barely anything.

And when we did see something it was incredibly contrived and unconvincing. “I will never serve” was probably the worst string of 4 words that could have ever been uttered in warcraft history and Danuser is 100% to blame.

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I still take offense when they declared that the Chronicles books aren’t “actual canon and just a point of view of things”. What’s then the point of releasing them?

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You care about the quest because it makes your character look bad. You don’t care about the tree because it wasn’t your tree or your faction’s people that were in it. I’m sure if a horde city had gotten blown up with a bunch of civilians inside in bfa, you’d suddenly have started caring.

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I bet the Mod who moved this from GD had a bit of a chuckle.

I imagine it partially comes from a lack of consistency.
Consistency can be many things.
It can be character motivations, character personality, it can be one event happening and then not having happened in the following story.

But lack of consistency can also be a lack of logical inference. Something happens, logically this means that this will then happen. Some would call this headcannon, in some cases I would call it logical inference.

If you establish a certain rule, and then discontinue that rule through your writing, then you have created a lack in consistency.

The Sunwell is a huge breaker of several rules.

  1. Fel is hard to clean
  • But we see fel being easily cleansed by a strong light source
  1. The counter to fel is Arcane Magic, as learned through the Demon Hunters
  • The Sunwell is a half-half mix of Arcane and Light magic

In some interview, we were told that the Sunwell can change the Blood Elves’ eyecolour to golden - but this specific change would primarily be seen in Blood Elven priests and paladins, because they draw upon the light from the Sunwell (Blizzard only gives golden eyes to blood elf paladins and priest NPCs as a form of visual storytelling, only they get golden eyes in accordance with lore). While we have now received blue eyes for Blood Elves, it should probably have occured along with the golden eyes. Because Blood Elven magi draw upon the arcane from the Sunwell.

We also know, that all elves hailing from Quel’thalas, whether they call themselves High or Blood Elves, are automatically connected to the Sunwell, the Sunwell’s light and arcane properties are constantly flowing through both High and Blood Elves. We learned this in the Lor’themar Story: In the Shadow of the Sun, when Lor’themar pointed out, that it may take some time for others to get used to this new Sunwell, because they were used to only Arcane before, but now it is also light. The High Elf priestess, however, noted that this new sensation was not at all strange to her, obviously, she is a priestess of the light.

So, a strong light source cleanses fel, and arcane is the counter to fel.

Given those rulesets, the logical conclusion is that the Blood Elves, if they did not choose to be warlocks, should have been given golden and blue eyes a long time ago already. High Elven paladins and priests, should also have golden eyes. Blood Elves at large, should have been cleaned of fel corruption rather quickly

That is just one example that I can think about right now, there are most certainly more examples in the story. Other examples are probably Sylvanas and Jaina that both were extremely unstable characters with character personalities and motivations that jumped all over the place constantly.

Tbh I think he’s more a symptom than the actual problem. Which is modern WoW keeps trying to be a story about the hero characters.

Which would be a bad idea even if they didn’t have personalities that changed at random. Because this is a MMORPG. The story should be about the world and your personal adventure through it. The hero characters should just be a small part of that world.

In Vanilla for example it feels like an achievement when you’re finally given a quest by the Banshee Queen. You’ve come a long way from smacking skeletons in Deathknell and now after countless adventures you’re being called on by a faction leader as you’ve proven yourself a competent agent of the Horde.

In Cata you’re getting redundant exposition pony rides with Sylvanas like 1/4th of the way through Silverpine.

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I am against this line of reasoning for totally unselfish reasons.

Player choice is player choice.
If we consider World of Warcraft purely as a game product, all options should be open and players should be able to make whatever choice they want. But as someone who do like a little bit of roleplaying, I personally enjoy to have an overarching story that follows certain rulesets too, so those should exist in stories, as far as I am concerned.

But also, as far as I am concerned, it is up to the individual roleplayer to follow these rulesets in regards to character customization, and also in regards to roleplayers, some race-class combos can be explained in some other way.

A Man’ari Death Knight, as one example, does not have to be a Death Knight in roleplay, although you should probably try not to roleplay it as a ‘Death Knight’.

There are a lot of good answers here. My own criticisms boil down to:

The story in Danuser’s era (as far as I can determine the fuzzy boundaries between eras) chases dramatic scenes/moments, sacrificing everything else in that pursuit - previous lore, character consistency, story stability, etc, to the self-destructive point where the dramatic scene either doesn’t make sense or doesn’t matter.

A) Previous lore. So much previous lore was thrown out or undermined by shoehorning the Jailor into being the mastermind of everything. I’m okay with some retcons, but there’s a difference between not letting previous canon strangle the story and not bothering to tactfully weave the current story into the existing canon. It undermines the player’s investment in those previous storylines by saying that a) the complete emotional journey the player went through in that storyline was not true, b) the player’s successes were aktually just part of a villain’s plan, and c) some characters’ actions (like Kel’thuzad’s) in that storyline were all just pretend (or nonsensical). The overuse of retcons also undermines interest in current storylines by planting the thought that this story, too, could be yanked out from underneath them at any time in the future.
Retcons can serve a story well, but they incur a cost against the audience’s investment. If the result of the retcon recoups that loss and then some, it’s a success - like, say, the retcon to add the draenei, then all the draenei-related stories built on that retcon. But I feel that the Jailor’s retcon did not earn back that investment. The Jailor story - which sums up to “I have pulled the strings for eons to subjugate you because of reasons I won’t tell you about” - was not as interesting as the lost completeness of Arthas’ personal fall and defeat, of the Legion’s universal march of destruction for Sargeras’ twisted goals, of Sylvanas’ personal and yet Horde-bound determination to avoid death, of Elune’s uniqueness and mystery, etc.

B) Character consistency. The main characters have had years of time in the story spotlight; Years of actions and reactions, repeated character traits and growth into new traits - and this is meant to let the player feel like they know the character, and be invested in when they can see the character again and where the character is going next.
But when ‘next’ has little or no bearing with what came before, that sours the player’s investment with the story. Sylvanas the schemer, the clever general, the one who broke away from one deathly master already and will never be subjugated again - serving the Jailor because ‘the afterlife is unfair’ and not realizing the mind-controlling master of Domination might, y’know, do exactly what he’s always been doing and mind-control people when he wins? This wasn’t even some long con where she was planning on betraying him the whole time and just needed to serve him long enough to put her own plan into place? “I will never serve” is a good line, and that moment was no doubt the idea that the story was built around, but it was so thoroughly undermined by the stupid and contradictory scenario built around it that it earned its meme status.

c) Story stability. The story in a game exists to let the player know “where am I?” and “where am I going?” - to that end, the player needs to be able to guess/predict to some extent what might happen next based on what has happened. The clearest example is knowing who the final boss is - while Arthas’ frequent appearances during the levelling experience might be silly in that he always lets us go, there’s a reason he is the epitome of an expansion boss. We know who he is, what he’s doing, and therefore what we must be doing to stop him.
But so much of the BfA/SL stories were based on mysteries - who is the Jailor? Why is he doing this? Why is Sylvanas serving him? Why did he capture Anduin? And they take so long to answer, and the answers all-too-often were not worth the wait. Anduin is a shortcut to get close to Kyrestia, learned after one patch? Fine. The Jailor being the original Arbiter, learned two patches in? Okay, though it could have been revealed earlier to pick up the pace. The Jailor wanting to rewrite all of creation in order to fight… someone?.. learned after months and months? Not worth it. Sylvanas chose to serve the Jailor because the afterlife was unfair and she thought that Mr. Mind Control was going to be fair, learned after four years since her villain-ness started and only spelled out in an out-of-game book? Completely unacceptable.
Mysteries are fine to keep players engaged and looking forward to the next step, but they need to pay off quickly enough to keep the players interested rather than frustrated. This is especially tricky in a game that takes so long between ‘chapters’. There’s a reason good books - particularly mysteries and thrillers - are praised by saying “I couldn’t put it down”… but in a MMO, the player is forced to put the story down and wait weeks or months for the next plot development… and ~2 years for the conclusion. That conclusion being “come back in another 2 years and we might give you one more sentence to ponder” is not fun, not worth the wait, and not worth the investment in the original mystery.

The mystery focus, to me, calls back the good old “subverting expectations” line. Keep the audience guessing, keep them hooked. But I feel that it misses two main points:

  1. Predictability isn’t inherently bad just because it’s predictable. Predictability is only bad when the predictable option is boring. If people think that the story is angling toward something they like, they will not like it if that something is yanked away just to subvert their expectations.
  2. It isn’t the mere existence of a mystery that hooks the audience, but the chance of figuring out the mystery based on what came before or at least realizing the causal chain after-the-fact. If the mystery’s solution is random or could not have been guessed based on what was already given to the audience before the final reveal, it’s less fun than the moment of “Ohhhhh, that was it! I should have expected that!”

I could elaborate more on these points, but this is already a hefty wall of text so I’ll leave it for now.

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The basic answer is what many people here have said, his writing is inconsistent. He’s done everything he can to make sure that there is no throughline that exists; the moment he became lead, every lore source is literally just character perspective, so that he can change anything on a whim if he wants to. He first started having major influence in BFA, picking up the reins from Afrasiabi; no matter how much was planned by someone else ahead of time, there was enough space to course correct yet it didn’t happen. Then comes Shadowlands, which probably had an outline made ahead of time, but the details were filled in by Danuser which are far from the rest of lore and doesn’t jive with what’s already existed. Now we’re in Dragonflight, which is completely his project and is an incredibly basic and bland story; there’s nothing exciting here, we’re mostly following the Incarnates from one place to the next, defeating them and doing fluff in between, with a small glimmer of interesting stuff from the Dracthyr storyline but even that isn’t very noteworthy.

From my POV, I don’t think the guy actually cares about Warcraft, I think he just wants to make whatever random stories he feels like doing and jams it in regardless of whether or not it naturally fits the setting. There’s a lot now that exists in lore with little or no explanation, which is dubious because of the “perspective” rule he’s put in place, and he overrelies on mcguffins to connect plotpoints even when some of them come from literally nowhere (Tidestone of Golganneth in 8.2, sigils in 9.1, whatever this Void proto-Dragon Soul Iridikron has). Sometimes things don’t make sense which feels like is because he doesn’t care about a greater reason for it or just can’t figure out a good way to make it work so he doesn’t give any way at all. He also completely ignores criticism and doesn’t address it at all, which means he’s either too stupid to see it and/or is an idiot jerk that doesn’t care about the players. It’s acceptable for someone to be dumb or rude, not both.

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To be perfectly honest, I don’t even think Danuser’s overall writing is that bad. Not much different than what WoW’s story has always been like. People on this board in particular just live to cry about everything. The forums have a very short attention span and need a body to pin their hate on. I actually have no idea how or why they suddenly decided Christie Golden is no longer the whipping girl, but whatever. It’s not Danuser.

Now al that said, the handling of the Jailer and Shadwlands will forever mar whatever else he does, now and in the future. And that’s because it was so obviously egregious as to what the game plan was that when it fell flat on it’s a$$, it really fell. So now, anything with Danuser’s name attached will forever be stained with the blood of Shadowlands.

I’d bet top dollar, now that Metzen is properly back in the fold discourse will be something like this; anything that is considered good will be attributed to Metzen and Metzen alone, while anything bad no matter how minor was pure Danuser and he somehow locked Metzen in a cupboard for 20 minutes while he forced the team to put his bad storytelling in game.

It might seem a little farfetched to you but this does happen in game development.

Just like some jerk says we should completely change a UI system even though it’ll take a year, that development path gets cemented, the jerk gets fired, and everyone’s suffering through the year badly implementing something designed and decided by a guy who doesn’t even work there anymore.

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He created and oversaw the development of the jailer, by far the WORST and most poorly written villain in all of Warcraft. I’m so glad Metzen is back to take over the reins

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I think the guy gets a lot of hate because they know his name and he is one of the new guard - as opposed to the self styled rock stars who previously ran the lore.

As far as I can tell, the most hated parts of recent lore were Afrasiabi’s doing, since he tried burning the place down as he was ushered out the door, and Danuser basically had to try and drive the flaming wreck out of the ditch.

IMO he gets hate for not landing the flaming plane good enough for the paying customers, after the original pilot tried crashing into a mountain.

As far as I can tell, he is probably responsible for the whiplash ending of Shadowlands - which is a good thing imo, and Dragonflight. Basically a hard stop on Afrasiabi’s ideas, followed by a time skip, and a more grounded expac.

I can’t even blame him for the lame stuff Golden added, she has been a part of making the lore for a while. She gained more prominence, but that seemed more of Blizzard trying to check boxes by opening up their Boys Club in a public way. I can’t blame him for that, that appears a choice above his head.

It seems a lot of the bitter people are just mad about Fart Cloud Arthas, but I thought that was awesome.

I cut the guy some slack, with all the context of the Cosby Crew and the self styled rock stars and the ascension of Golden to check boxes - likely in light of the allegations that would follow.

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I don’t know, I personally don’t think what’s he’s done in Dragonflight is terrible. It’s not A+ material, but it’s not an F- either. It’s certainly leagues better than what we got in BFA and SL.

I’m honestly curious to see what kind of story having Metzen (the old guard) and Danuser (the next generation) working together can produce.

Yeah, I agree. It’s mainly just folks latching on to a name without thinking about it.

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It’s undeniable that the story has gone downhill since Metzen left. I think you would struggle to find a single person that disagrees with that statement. The fact is, Metzen created most of warcrafts lore, a huge complaint of the community is the lore being retconned, disrespected or even outright ignored. If Metzen comes back and the storyline improves, who else should we attribute that fact to? Who is better qualified to continue the story than him?

Dragonflight does actually feel like a lot of the story is written through quests. That’s where the large part of the story is. So when you get to the main overarching story, and it’s as dry as sandpaper, it just leaves you standing there scratching your head going, “Is that it?”

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Dont get me wrong i know this is true. I’m saying thats not going to be the case here lol.

It will purely be a situation of;

Good Story = Metzen
Bad Story = Danuser

With little to no nuance lol. And Im not talking about people looking back at Dragonflight either. I’m talking about future storylines. If something people like happens, it’ll pure Metzen. If anything happens they dont like, it’ll be pure Danuser.

I wouldn’t say Metzen is a better writer, it’s just more juvenile. If you break down Metzen’s writing he’s just plagiarizing The Forgotten Realms and most of his self inserts are Superman references. But what Metzen understands is ‘cool factor.’

Danuser is the opposite, his writing has emotional depth just no ‘cool factor.’

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Could you elaborate? Because the only thing Danuser has made me feel so far is frustration and annoyance.

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