An oposing faction does not have to 100% evilbad for the Alliance not to get along with them. Other games do this. It would certainly be more interesting if the faction conflict was more nuanced.
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It’s a criticism of how the writers have handled Horde story telling, specifically as it relates to major lore characters within the Horde.
It’s a huojin acting like a tushui while denouncing their fellow huojin for not being True huojin.
The Horde should be able to identify when someone has crossed the line without a King of Stormwind telling them so. The Horde should be able to send champions to defend Azeroth without a mage of the Kirin Tor giving them their marching orders. The Horde should be able to resolve their internal conflicts without an Alliance army taking the field beside them.
The Red Alliance has no motivation of its own that does not line up exactly with the motivation of the Alliance. The Red Alliance has no morals of their own, no ethics that are not perfectly in line with the Alliance. The Red Alliance cannot do anything on its own, and must confer with the Alliance before taking any action. The Red Alliance treats its own soldiers lives as completely disposable next to that of an ‘innocent’ member of the Alliance.
The Red Alliance acts and behaves only as is appropriate by Alliance standards and is constantly chastised and betrayed by their leadership when they act in the least bit like people who follow a different philosophy or have a different culture than what the Alliance would approve of.
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It’s a term used by Horde that flip their s*** whenever a Horde character looks at an Alliance one without an immediate desire to murder them on sight but are also the same ones that cry about being villain batted.
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Thrall did a lot of morally gray things. He threatened the Alliance to give his people a place to exist in the EK or face war. He sent Broxigar and his men on a suicide mission. He allowed encroachment on Night Elf lands knowing it would cause conflict.
The best outcome for the Horde story is Vol’jin coming back to be Warcheif (since hes a good middle of the road warcheif) and Tyrande attacking the Horde so a level of conflict continues to remain.
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I consider Red Alliance moments to be moments where the Horde is unable to be morally upright without intervention from the Alliance.
For an easy example, note the difference between Vol’jin, and Saurfang and Baine. Vol’jin was able to recognize on his own that Garrosh was doing Bad Things. He reacted to this by standing on his own two feet and recruiting Horde heroes to oust Garrosh, all underneath his own power, and all for the sake of the Horde. There was cooperation between the factions sure, but the writing was handled well enough that I could believe that Vol’jin and the Horde would have at least tried to handle the Garrosh situation on their own if the Alliance didn’t want to play ball.
With Saurfang, he had to be stirred into action by an Alliance hero goading him into it. And of course Baine needs no mention considering that he outright has more positive interactions with Alliance members than Horde members.
None of this means that I hate the Alliance mind you. But as of the last few expansions, I no longer get the feeling that the Horde is capable of being heroic without outside influence. A big part of my initial infatuation with the Horde was that they were traditionally monstrous-looking races that were morally upright independent of said looks. A lot of that magic is ruined for me when you show me that they can’t actually behave themselves without being led around by the nose by Lawful Good Humans.
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That would require the developers creating an equal amount of content unique to each faction, and we know that they’re never going to do that.
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True, but they shouldn’t act like their laziness is a virtue.
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The alliance did a lot of morally gray things too, back then. Both sides did. Half the horde starting quests in kalimdor were fighting back alliance aggression.
Vol’jin is dead.
No it’s not. The faction war needs to end for good.
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WoW very frequently uses the idea that there’s a great world/cosmos threatening force that the Horde and Alliance must combine forces to defeat.
However, the NPCs we follow, the places/cultures we visit, and the organizations we work with to stop the threat are all Alliance leaning. If they aren’t outright affiliated with the Alliance, then they were founded by the Alliance. And they tend to be dominated by the Alliance races in terms of numbers, aesthetic, culture, and leadership. Most of the relationships/history/culture you explore will be related to the Alliance races/NPCs.
It more or less becomes an Alliance experience, only the Horde gets to participate- and it’s sold as Neutral content. The only time it works differently is when the Horde/Alliance war makes such cooperation impossible, forcing the Horde to go on a divergent -and often more antagonistic- arc.
There’s a lot of reasons, but I think the simplest explanation is that Alliance, being the faction that hews most closely with classic high fantasy tropes/modern western society is just the easier faction to write for and flesh out as the default experience.
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A bunch of unpleasant jack@sses who constantly harass people like me for wanting some moral variety in the Horde the way we used to, rather than just gravitating to whatever Alliance-hate mob mentality is trending at the time.
Oh, you mean the term itself?
I think it’s just when people think that the Horde is acting like the Alliance too much, or treating them with any modicum if respect, or really just being able to tolerate the Alliances’ existence at all. Even though 1/3 of the core Horde races are former Alliance members.
So essentially, it’s just some annoying phrase some Sylvanas loyalists use to mock the “Honor” crowd rather than just accepting the fact that some Horde players like being good guys as opposed to dedicating their existence to spiting the Alliance.
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Well the hot war needs to end. A cold war leaves room for some conflict.
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if its a cold war that I can ignore, and invite you to my party to go do a dungeon, I’m good with it. Leave the “factions” there for PVP, but let us group up with anyone. It’s more than time.
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Heck yea. Just because the factions don’t like each other or agree on everything doesn’t mean we have to be trying to murder each other 24/7.
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Even if they allowed cross faction parties/instances, you could still do a story where the leadership of the Horde and Alliance are at odds. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
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100% true. they can put us, the heroes, back in our class halls if they really want to justify it, so if the leaders get their panties bunched again, we can say (in my case, anyway) “uh… yeah… the silver hand doesn’t support this stupidity. Any of us. Trolls, humans, elves, tauren, dwarves, or draenei…”
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Well I don’t mean that players have to be completely removed from the conflict either. You could have done BfA, and allowed Horde and Alliance to party or queue up to run dungeons/raids. The story and gameplay are separate.
However, your example is exactly the kind of situation I referenced earlier. The Silver Hand is an Alliance based organization whose membership consists almost entirely of current/former Alliance races.
I know you said “in my case”, but it’s the actual the case for Trolls and Tauren and Blood elves.
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there’s actually only three alliance races that can be paladins too, if you think about it.
Humans
Dwarves (dark iron and normal)
Draenei (both regular and lightforged)
So really, technically, both sides have the same amount of representation.
That said, i understand your point. I’d imagine it’s similar for the alliance who are in the shaman order hall.
Pretty much. Now just extrapolate the Shaman order hall across pretty much every Order hall and you have the Horde experience in Legion. I didn’t pick a Troll because I thought it’d be cool for my character to be the Archbishop of the fantasy version of the Catholic Church. Or be the champion of a hidden Night Elf hunting lodge. Or go to Valhalla and become Odin’s champion.
That’s what Red Alliance is. Yeah, you’re Horde, but the things you do, the NPCs you deal with, and the organizations you work with have little/no relationship with your character race’s culture, history, traditions, beliefs, or aesthetic.
You’re experience is that of just another generic fantasy MMO protagonist- who just happens to have a red icon.
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Honestly, I think the belves are pretty much the, ‘Red Alliance,’ as is, so… I guess the Horde will be a lot more like the belves. I’d almost say Lor’themar should be the Warchief, but he’d either die choking on a bagel or become the new master of the Burning Legion.
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The only “Red Alliance” I want is a reborn Scarlet Crusade where the Alliance comes first no matter what! And we fight stuff real good!