Of all the different qualities I appreciate the most, its internal consistency within a genre - particularly an absence of political correctness - if that's what makes the genre believable/consistent.
Consider the evolution of WC 2 to 3, then to WoW. What happened in regards to the tone? Something, nothing? In wow vanilla it veered off from the RTS rank and file troop type, and went toward egalitarian tones of any race/gender can be a warrior/fighter/footman/grunt - essentially the virtue of equality displayed in the militaries of Azeroth. It's and MMORPG, so it makes sense to have some looseness here.... but Isn't equality and medieval fantasy counter opposite? Is this really a good exception? Well....
In a game about medieval swords and sorcery, there's fudge factors to throw in regards to one's abilities (cuz /magic) but that is still a spectrum, and one that shouldn't ride upon the feelings of 'fairness' regardless of absurdity.
Some people are born stronger and are more prone to having more fast twitch muscle fibers, high amounts of testosterone (which produces higher CNS response), strong bone structure.... etc. If you're a male, you belong to this group - cuz science. (If you're an orc, its even more apparent!) I know there are exceptions out there when it comes to women, and that's great (freakin female powerlifters ;) but even these are such an extreme minority, and sometimes don't compare to weaker trained guys. Obviously this point is getting too real for a cartoony pulp fiction such as wow, but bare with me here...
Medieval whatever, is based on some meme familiarity - from our reality. That there are certain qualities about it that are just barbaric and tyrannical. 'Evil patriarchy' is the theme, and you know what... when was the last time you really got this sense in the last sword and board game/movie? I mean really playing on the barbaric vibe (not just sexism)? GoT capitalized on this sense.
WoW is a mix of medieval memes sandwiched together. It requires a dose from our reality, what we know of medieval times, and throws it into the formula of magic. Some idealism is thrown in, but that's where things have gotten convoluted. Consider Tolkien, and his sense of characters - there was no egalitarian view advertised left and right - it was written with a mindset that was using some basic laws/familiarity from our own world. How does this relate to wow? Because familiarity and novelty now have no limits.
Does this mean that I'm advocating male only melee character or something? Nope. This is just an example. Though I could see some sense of immersion from this. I'm not just dwelling on the gender but other vibes that make up medieval fantasy (low or high), and how that should be approached - to convey something that is more authentic, than something artificial (pandering) or just simply convoluted.
Look at the Horde, blizzard has woven a story arc that, in my opinion has attempted to steer them away from monoliths of 'smash and bash' creatures to 'we are noble savages, and really are not that bad'. I see this as patronizing, that the writers really think that doesn't sound convoluted. There is an air of convenience about it, making them more complicated - thus more interesting (cuz they say so). They should have just left it alone, and I sense make it more evocative. Keeping the horde more 2 dimensional could have actually been more humorous and fun.
Getting back to the whole egalitarian thing. Heroes can be whatever the player chooses, cuz heroes are the exception. If they want to be a female gnome barbarian, okay - they are the exception in that fictitious society, but not the norm. Women as a staple in a medieval military? That's one area that's crossing the line. This is medieval fantasy, with at least some of the realism implied. Yea okay, so lets let that go. What else is there when it comes to gender stuff? female leads. They are left and right in the story arc. I guess magic operates as the equalizing force in Azeroth? Looking between the lines here, as a viewer, isn't that kinda patronizing? If I were a smarty woman, and saw this, I'd think/hope so.
Pegging generalizations down, when formulating a fiction, should be as honest as possible, regardless of feelings hurt. Creativity needs boundaries at times, especially when its referencing sentient things. This includes game design.
As a whole, I believe this feeling, essence, of inclusion is a large contributing factor as to why WoW retail has evolved this way... and it started with vanilla - which was emulating other MMOs in this regard at that time.
If any MMORPG ever comes out recognizing these basic self-evident qualities in reality, and considers it in their rule set, it will take some sizable steel balls. I can only imagine the outrage when someone picks female as a gender and there are certain characteristics that are lower (and some higher). Or portraying an undead warlock as he should be....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbazH6aE2g
Hmm... maybe if there was a franchise to get this right, with the charm that made wow popular, it would be a cartoony version of game of thrones MMORPG.
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For me, it means a few things.
1.) Castles
2.) Knights in shining armor (ornate or not)
3.) Wizards and magic
4.) Traditional Fantasy Monsters
5.) Pretty much anything that takes what Tolkien and Lewis did and does something different with it.
6.) Medieval European Tropes
This entire collective is one of the reasons why TES 3: Morrowind and WoW: TBC are my least favorite entries in their respective series. They're not what I'm looking for when I'm playing a fantasy title.
1.) Castles
2.) Knights in shining armor (ornate or not)
3.) Wizards and magic
4.) Traditional Fantasy Monsters
5.) Pretty much anything that takes what Tolkien and Lewis did and does something different with it.
6.) Medieval European Tropes
This entire collective is one of the reasons why TES 3: Morrowind and WoW: TBC are my least favorite entries in their respective series. They're not what I'm looking for when I'm playing a fantasy title.
10/27/2018 09:24 PMPosted by VictorlawFor me, it means a few things.
1.) Castles
2.) Knights in shining armor (ornate or not)
3.) Wizards and magic
4.) Traditional Fantasy Monsters
5.) Pretty much anything that takes what Tolkien and Lewis did and does something different with it.
6.) Medieval European Tropes
This entire collective is one of the reasons why TES 3: Morrowind and WoW: TBC are my least favorite entries in their respective series. They're not what I'm looking for when I'm playing a fantasy title.
Aye. It's gone so far off the reservation now, we have ninja pandas round house kicking demons while shooting laser beams from spaceships, helping 20 foot tall deities fix their interdimensional problems. BFA is a bit better in this regard.
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10/27/2018 09:38 PMPosted by Tormund10/27/2018 09:24 PMPosted by VictorlawFor me, it means a few things.
1.) Castles
2.) Knights in shining armor (ornate or not)
3.) Wizards and magic
4.) Traditional Fantasy Monsters
5.) Pretty much anything that takes what Tolkien and Lewis did and does something different with it.
6.) Medieval European Tropes
This entire collective is one of the reasons why TES 3: Morrowind and WoW: TBC are my least favorite entries in their respective series. They're not what I'm looking for when I'm playing a fantasy title.
Aye. It's gone so far off the reservation now, we have ninja pandas round house kicking demons while shooting laser beams from spaceships, helping 20 foot tall deities fix their interdimensional problems. BFA is a bit better in this regard.
I honestly thought the Warcraft movie was a much better representation of what Warcraft's lore could be than the games have been in a long, long time. I know I'm probably in the minority for saying that, but I adored its more grounded approach to the Warcraft universe while maintaining what felt like the heart and soul of the series.
When I say it felt like a long, live-action Warcraft 3 cinematic, I don't mean it as an insult like one reviewer did. I mean it as a compliment.
(PS: I don't hate the pandaren. I thought I would, but I don't. As additional flavor to the world, I've got nothing against them. They're not the main characters. Besides, Chen Stormstout was in Warcraft 3's expansion.)
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10/27/2018 09:41 PMPosted by Victorlaw10/27/2018 09:38 PMPosted by Tormund...
Aye. It's gone so far off the reservation now, we have ninja pandas round house kicking demons while shooting laser beams from spaceships, helping 20 foot tall deities fix their interdimensional problems. BFA is a bit better in this regard.
I honestly thought the Warcraft movie was a much better representation of what Warcraft's lore could be than the games have been in a long, long time. I know I'm probably in the minority for saying that, but I adored its more grounded approach to the Warcraft universe while maintaining what felt like the heart and soul of the series.
When I say it felt like a long, live-action Warcraft 3 cinematic, I don't mean it as an insult like one reviewer did. I mean it as a compliment.
(PS: I don't hate the pandaren. I thought I would, but I don't. As additional flavor to the world, I've got nothing against them. They're not the main characters. Besides, Chen Stormstout was in Warcraft 3's expansion.)
Yea, the panda thing was just a joke though. It would have been fine being some hermit wandering around imo.
As far as the movie goes, its okay. I would agree, that it hits on a tone warcraft hasn't had in some time. Though I think them making the Orcs too gentle was a mistake (that's a fault with the franchise too and not just the movie).
10/27/2018 09:57 PMPosted by Tormund10/27/2018 09:41 PMPosted by Victorlaw...
I honestly thought the Warcraft movie was a much better representation of what Warcraft's lore could be than the games have been in a long, long time. I know I'm probably in the minority for saying that, but I adored its more grounded approach to the Warcraft universe while maintaining what felt like the heart and soul of the series.
When I say it felt like a long, live-action Warcraft 3 cinematic, I don't mean it as an insult like one reviewer did. I mean it as a compliment.
(PS: I don't hate the pandaren. I thought I would, but I don't. As additional flavor to the world, I've got nothing against them. They're not the main characters. Besides, Chen Stormstout was in Warcraft 3's expansion.)
Yea, the panda thing was just a joke though. It would have been fine being some hermit wandering around imo.
As far as the movie goes, its okay. I would agree, that it hits on a tone warcraft hasn't had in some time. Though I think them making the Orcs too gentle was a mistake (that's a fault with the franchise too and not just the movie).
It was just the Frostwolves that were "gentle" though, and even then it was out of their sense of practicality. All the other clans in the movie were incredibly brutal.
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It's funny, because what so many people think of as "medieval fantasy" has elements from later and earlier eras stirred into it.
10/27/2018 10:03 PMPosted by IdunIt's funny, because what so many people think of as "medieval fantasy" has elements from later and earlier eras stirred into it.
True. Just look at GOT for example.
That being said, medieval fantasy does still follow pretty much the same formula I outlined in my first post in this thread.
It means no motorbikes.
Medieval Fantasy typically means something like the original Sword & Sorcery genre. European style middle ages melded with actual magic being a thing and all your assortment of fantasy creatures (elves, dwarfs, etc.) often with many references to actual history either outright or implied. Tolkien is obviously a paragon of this, but a lot of the original style sword and sorcery novels had a lot of it as well. Conan for example, despite generally being closer to dark ages or earlier (well, maybe not in Aquilonia) would definitely fit medieval fantasy in a lot of cases. A Song of Ice & Fire slots in very well, but IMHO a true "medieval fantasy" series would have more magic (as magic in Westeros, as in Middle Earth, is way more subtle and low-key).
WoW now is more of a hodgepodge of various things, and way closer to the Eberron-style (for those who don't know Eberron was a D&D campaign setting that was sort of magipunk fantasy where magic was replicating science so you things like elemental-powered airships, automatons, magical lanterns, etc.) where you have a lot of non-medieval things due to magic. Nothing is wrong with that genre (I loved Eberron as a setting although I hated it at first for it not being traditional fantasy) but it's different.
WoW now is more of a hodgepodge of various things, and way closer to the Eberron-style (for those who don't know Eberron was a D&D campaign setting that was sort of magipunk fantasy where magic was replicating science so you things like elemental-powered airships, automatons, magical lanterns, etc.) where you have a lot of non-medieval things due to magic. Nothing is wrong with that genre (I loved Eberron as a setting although I hated it at first for it not being traditional fantasy) but it's different.
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Caution: Supernerd Thread
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10/28/2018 07:19 AMPosted by StevospeedoCaution: Supernerd Thread
Supernerd is fine. This sounds more like masculine insecurity projection thread.
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Warcraft has always combined elements of 19th century industrial era with Medieval fantasy. As far as the socially progressive aspects of the game, don't confuse historical fiction with fantasy.
10/28/2018 07:52 AMPosted by FelslayerWarcraft has always combined elements of 19th century industrial era with Medieval fantasy. As far as the socially progressive aspects of the game, don't confuse historical fiction with fantasy.
Not always. Warcraft 1 was completely devoid of it.
Indeed Victorlaw, Warcraft 1 was as traditional as it gets for medieval fantasy. Warcraft 2 had a little steampunk with the gnomish flying machines and submarines. It wasn't until Warcraft 3 that we got riflemen, mortars, and tanks. I am not against having high technology in fantasy settings but at that point it's really a mixed genre. Lore wise Burning Crusade was a debacle...the Draenei spaceships was a trainwreck alongside the blood elves imprisoning a Naaru it was a mess. All that retcon gibberish to give each faction shaman/paladin. It is sad because the storyline of battling the naga, bloodelves, and the demons was pretty solid.
10/27/2018 10:03 PMPosted by IdunIt's funny, because what so many people think of as "medieval fantasy" has elements from later and earlier eras stirred into it.
Because this game is (or was) more Lovecraftian/ Cosmic horror than medieval fantasy. I would not use medieval fantasy to describe vanilla & TBC. That's like calling Harry Potter an action movie -- it's kind of correct, but not a good descriptor.
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10/28/2018 05:43 AMPosted by NobleshieldTolkien is obviously a paragon of this
Well, he presented his stolen material well :)
That's a pretty good assessment OP.
I would like to however point this out. This is an MMORPG. So I feel that such a point was forced more than any. As for the military I do quite agree but I feel like it was something Blizzard overlooked.
It's actually a very good point in the concept of writing though. But being an MMORPG game take example, setting Thrall as the main character in Cata and well you see what happened to that.
As a writer myself I have had to take in this fact. In the book I am soon to release it has one female warrior and while she is as said an exception to the norm she even faces serious emotional breakdown (story related. aka everyone she grew up with dies in a single moment, it wasn't even planned until I realized "oh sht that includes all the ppl she likely grew up with... WELP CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!" lol)
I would like to however point this out. This is an MMORPG. So I feel that such a point was forced more than any. As for the military I do quite agree but I feel like it was something Blizzard overlooked.
It's actually a very good point in the concept of writing though. But being an MMORPG game take example, setting Thrall as the main character in Cata and well you see what happened to that.
As a writer myself I have had to take in this fact. In the book I am soon to release it has one female warrior and while she is as said an exception to the norm she even faces serious emotional breakdown (story related. aka everyone she grew up with dies in a single moment, it wasn't even planned until I realized "oh sht that includes all the ppl she likely grew up with... WELP CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!" lol)
10/28/2018 07:46 AMPosted by Tricksyhyena10/28/2018 07:19 AMPosted by StevospeedoCaution: Supernerd Thread
Supernerd is fine. This sounds more like masculine insecurity projection thread.
It's realism. Noting subtle things that throw off what would make the game's character base more realistic.
Don't tell me you're a feminist, you people (in general not feminists) need to get your heads out of your crotches and understand that someone noticing and going over the general differences of gender has nothing to do with their own and everything to do with realistic views.