What do you enjoy using Obliteration?

Classes Death Knight
1

I recently made a post in a Frost DK topic in general. The basic premise is that it’s very difficult to tune or adjust Frost, as BoS and Obliteration compete with each other.

The problem is, there’s people that like both playstyles, so you’re going to annoy some people either way. As a BoS enjoyer I feel like I can’t find this playstyle with any other class or spec, the constant runic power drain, using all options to keep it above zero etc (personally I’d prefer if it was impossible to keep it up as long as currently; but that’s a separate discussion).

That made me wonder, what it is all the Obliteration enjoyers love about it? Also, is there really not another class or spec that has a similar playstyle?

Note: The intention of this post is not to try and say Obliteration should go. I’m just interested what aspect of the Obliteration build people are attached too.

2

2 main factors for me. Oblit can hit damn hard once you are rolling. Not a fan of DnD though so playing my ret for the rest of the season since I’ve hit my goals (the difference in how fluid and the reduced position requirements is night and day by the way, feels like I’m playing expansions ahead in gameplay). Second I find breath gameplay cancerous. It’s not even a DW over 2hander thing either it’s purely that whole ability. I enjoyed DW oblit even though it wasn’t optimal by any means.

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3

They’re not really different playstyles at their core though.

With Obliteration, you ignore RP outside of keeping buffs/debuffs up, spam Obliterate, use RW on CD, and throw in Rimes.

With current BoS, you ignore RP, spam Obliterate, use RW on CD, and throw in Rimes.

The whole “resource management” of DKs in general went way, way out the window with 10.0.

I played it back in Legion when it wasn’t great, through SL, and now because I enjoy the core of Frost - and I do mean the core. The massive devaluation of Frost Strike, HB/Rime, and Remorseless Winter with Dragonflight Obliteration has resulted in the absolute worst version of non-BoS Frost since S4 BFA. I enjoy the idea of Obliteration because I enjoy playing the core of Frost. When I think of Antorus FDK, that’s basically “the core” dialed to 11 since it was very fast paced and streamlined (for the time).

Current Obliteration is horrible and if Blizzard doesn’t want to reduce KM procs or pull damage out from KM, then the Obliteration talent needs to go and be replaced with something that actually facilitates using the core abilities.

Objectively, there’s no other spec that’s been dumbed down into a 1 button spam like Frost. Even simple specs, like Ret & BM for example, still have a more cohesive kit that encourages other buttons being consistently used and not just to keep up debuffs/buffs.

Subjectively, anyone that actually wants “big numbers with a 2h” can get a similar kick out of Ret or Arms, and anyone wanting their 1 button spam can find that in Survival, but they’re not 1:1 playstyles of course.

I guess we’re not playing the same spec friend because Oblit caps out in the high 400s/ mid 500s, and you’re getting those types of hits on Enhance/Sub/Feral without having to high roll every proc. And when you do roll procs for those, you’re pushing into 800s/900s/700s~ respectively

4

When you put it that way, there are similarities either way. The main counter point being the complete lack of Frost Strike for BoS (assuming you don’t drop breath). I guess for me Obliterate just feels like “any other” melee spec, while BoS doesn’t. An interesting perspective though.

This sounds like an admirable goal for me. I’m definitely on board with a non-BoS option for Frost and maybe what you’ve suggested may be a way to achieve this. While spending 20 seconds thinking about it… if Obliterate damage drops back, you could increase Frost Strike damage, which BoS isn’t using as much, could maybe achieve balance between the options there somehow (maybe with an alternative capstone talent of some kind, maybe one increasing Frost Strike damage somehow).

This seems to back up how I feel about Obliterate. It just feels like a basic/generic melee spec (I haven’t played any other melee classes at a high level), and by the sounds of things I’m not the only one.

5

The options are crap. You either pick BoS and get to make use of RP or you pick Obliteration and not want to use RP unless you cant help it.

It just has the same design flaws as it did expansions ago and they went away from that design for good reason.

6

And that’s not a bad thing. Melee are always going to be “hit things with weapon” style, but there’s tons of ways to expand on that. Enhance & Ret have a more battle-caster approach where the strikes supplement magic, which DKs in general should 110% be leaning into. Arms, Fury, Sub, and WW to an extent, lean hard into the weapon (melee) strike approach. Sin, Feral, and Survival have DoT (bleed/poison) focus with some strikes, etc.

The over emphasis on Obliterate, and resource glut, is where the spec problems really lie. Gut KM damage and you can very easily fix the overall spec.

  • DND Cleave is hated, but that hate is because the spec only does damage when it’s pressing KM Obliterate. If KM Obliterate and FS/GA swapped damage profiles for example - so Obliterate does 250k~ with KM and FS is doing 400k+ crits - then the issue resolves itself because the builder returns to builder damage and the spender (in this case GA) would be doing 200k+ crits.

  • Frost Strike and GA feel incredibly weak for a spender, but there’s nowhere in the kit to pull damage from. Shattering Blade has 0 impact here since it’s purely a ST ability and, even if it did 200% damage, still likely wouldn’t see play. But if Obliterate didn’t get a crit and 100% Frost damage from KM - so one or the other for example - then there’s a ton of damage open that can be pumped into the spenders to make them better

  • If the spec cuts down on how much RP & rune generation it gets, then resource management - a core part of how DKs played in the past - becomes relevant again. This would also indirectly kill infinite BoS, which means it could be tuned to be a burst CD again.

  • If you remove the emphasis on “Obliterate does more damage” talents in general, you can do some interesting things, IE:

    • Frigid Executioner: Instead of refunding 2 runes, it could make the next RP spender free, do extra damage, guarantee crit (for an Icecap proc), etc.
    • Obliteration: Could make Pillar last longer since being in Pillar longer would just mean the spec is playing faster and getting stronger instead of just turbo pumping Obliterate damage
    • Frostscythe could be a viable AoE option on a choice node of “Obliterate cleaves to more targets” so players could play what they prefer
7

I get what you’re saying. My concern is that usually when you see the “re-work frost dk” posts a significant number of people say “just get rid of BoS, it sucks”. I’m sitting here thinking, I love that play-style, why can’t you just play another class/spec for your “generic melee” play-style? I do suppose class fantasy and aesthetics are important too.
I guess this is why I was interested in what people actually enjoy about non-BoS Frost.

All sounds good to me on paper but I don’t think I’m knowledgeable enough about this sort of stuff to critique or comment.

8

BoS isnt causing the issues. Its just people pointing the finger at what they dont like instead of what is the actual cause. This is a growing issue and not just in game.

9

If you were able to check around the reworked specs this expansion, you’d see that FDK isn’t unique here.

Vocal Havoc posters wanted Momentum removed to save the spec. Vocal Outlaw posters wanted Shadowdance / the stealth aspects removed to save the spec. Rets wanted Vanguard & Crusading Strikes reverted to their pre-nerf version to save the spec.

Thankfully :pray:, a lot of posters with their “fix the spec” ideas are ultimately in the minority and Blizzard has been intelligent with parsing rework feedback to not give into horrible ideas. (I personally have no stakes in Momentum/Shadow Dance but it was very mathematically clear that the original Crusading Strikes was cracked beyond belief and made Ret a 2 button spec).

To answer this, a lot of people want to play a melee DPS with DK aesthetics and not have the minions/DoTs focus that Unholy has. That leaves Frost or playing Arms/Ret with transmog, which obviously has restrictions on achieving that fantasy people want.

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10

A couple things, I guess, and I say this as an altoholic that enjoys a wide variety of play styles.

  1. In terms of class fantasy, I like having a DPS option that hits things hard with a weapon. Unholy plays into diseases and minions, Blood is a tank spec , and there was a good chunk of time pre-Legion when the “Masterfrost” playstyle was predominant, and I thought that spamming HB with two one-handed weapons felt too much like a caster as a melee class. Getting Oblit builds just felt like the right kind of fantasy to me. I still have Remorseless Winter and the occasional HB as supplemental Frost magic, and Frostwyrm’s Fury is awesome, but fundamentally, I think a DK should be able to leverage its unholy strength into hitting things very hard in one of its specs.

  2. Breath doesn’t work as well as Oblit for the content I mostly do on my DK, which is mostly pugging keys and whatever other outdoor contend is needed. I think it’s pretty well understood how unless the tank is pulling (and is able to pull) around your Breath, it is very easy for there to be soooo much wasted potential trying to run a Breath build in keys. Yeah you can have Obliteration windows messed up too, but at least it has a much shorter CD so it doesn’t feel as bad as having a Breath mostly go to waste.

I get that there are some issues- notably the DnD cleave issue (maybe RW could replace DnD for Frost?) , spenders feeling useless (maybe when at high RP they could hit harder? dunno…), and having such a high proportion of damage inside CDs, but overall I like the fantasy of Obliteration better, as well as the faster CD cycle that works better in M+

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11

The current incarnation of BoS actually makes it a lot worse than it used to be in keys ***. It’s possible to get 100% uptime, so it’s tuned around that so it isn’t busted in raids. However in practice you can’t get that uptime in keys due to downtime between packs, maybe it’s possible if you have a group totally focused on supporting it, but it’s not practical.

I had quite a bit of fun with BoS during Shadowlands, when 100% uptime wasn’t even a consideration. You’d pop it on a “big” pack and just melt it, it wasn’t heavily used (and still needed some element of the tank being aware) but was pretty good in the right circumstances. That doesn’t work now, because it doesn’t do enough damage, because it lasts too long.

*** Worth noting I tank most of my keys, so haven’t had a chance to experiment with it.

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12

Maybe I just suck at FDK, but it feels just like arms warrior to me. At least plays similar. Who knows, I am not good at DK. (Oblit build)

13

This is probably the actual answer I was looking for.

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14

Started playing frost as a tank. Have played every iteration of the spec, switching from tank to PvP.

Oblit actually feels impactful and like you are critting something since Legion. This is why it feels bad when undertuned, because it feels like it should do significant damage.

Mechanics wise, when frost worked in the past it was a strong burst. Hence why you also want to use a 2h, with how frost was designed. Obviously you then had the Legion redesign, and the bringing back of 2h frost for more burst.

Frost feels extra bad right now because of oblit feels off - it’s pretty much just a tickle in PvP compared to chaos bolt or something. It’s more about sustained mid pressure as opposed to forcing burst crit gameplay, and so feels bad.

BoS just feels like a FoTM style of play that feels bad to press. It’s like a little mini game that Blizz added to solve a problem, which was over tuned and become a style for ‘too long’. I’ve personally never liked it. Any time I’ve talented into it I’ve never kept it around. A burst play style just feels more akin to how the spec was designed after it became DPS.

I can see how people like BoS and dual wield for PvE, but for PvP I want my 2h and oblit bursts… plus 2h oblit actually feels remotely similar to the class / fantasy that was around after frost got reworked to DPS in the first place.

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15

100% Wrong. The spec was designed to DW… can we stop this “Frost was always primarily a 2h spec and DW was just an afterthought” nonsense narrative? The devs said it was designed for DW, Wrath Classic is just further evidence that its DW or bust even if you have Shadowmourne.

16

I totally understand the appeal of Arthas rp Obliterate build, but it feels so bad to push any other button. Spending resource should feel like a reward, but uniquely to frost it is only a buffer to upkeep our attack speed buff to proc more empowered Oblits. It would be so much more enjoyable to hard lean into Breath of Sindragoda and give it the fire mage Combustion treatment of having more talents that make it more interactable with our kit. To have it sooner in our tree and be able to choose between short burst or elongated steady damage, cdr, maybe a proc of glacial advance for every x-amount of runes we spend. Maybe they’ll move Army of the Dead / Purgatory / Bonestorm into the class tree? Most other specs in their rework got their cake and ate it too, no reason why we can’t have both and new stuff as well. Fingers crossed more classes get reworked!

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17

What if you moved the 2h vs dual wield split exactly into what is (primarily) a spender and what is a builder?
For example, Obliterate builds RP but spends runes while Frost Strike spends RP but builds runes (sort of).
Now this would be a pretty in-depth talent tree overhaul, but consider this:
Either exclusive or otherwise gated capstone talents which enhance Frost Strike or Obliterate, and picking one locks you into dual wield (much larger emphasis on Frost Strike and Howling Blast and maybe Remorseless Winter at the cost of making Obliterate into builder damage) and the other one locks you into 2h by changing either the rune cost of Obliterate to 3 runes or changing how Frost Strike Runic Corruption works and keeping the damage in Obliterate which is now your spender (with Frost Strike as the RP fueled builder that helps you recover runes to push Obliterates more).

I personally really liked Legion Frost when it was a dual wield build and would love to return to that, but right now due to disliking BoS and having Fyralath I am hard locked into Obliteration 2h. I don’t hate the playstyle, I hate the way it cleaves and how it ignores RP during Pillar.
I understand that I’m going VERY broad strokes here but if Frost Strike was the Obliteration “builder” while Obliterate was the dual-wield “builder” well it could be pretty nice.
Or just scrap 2h all along and lean into dual-wield again, I’m fine with that too.

18

Obli doesn’t have a 2min cd like bos and it’s much more forgiving

19

It would ultimately further the internal divide in the spec and continue leaving it unsatisfying to play.

If people really want “big Obliterates” to stay then they should be asking for KM changes, like having it just a 50% Frost damage proc, Frostreaper staying the same, and introducing some version of Hot Hands for Obliterate to let it do 100% Frost damage for a set duration that KM consumption could extend. Or removing Frostreaper. Or keeping Frostreaper and removing Obliteration & putting something that facilitates having FS/GA & Rime usage as a priority over Obliterate.

Lots of things can be done to fix the common complaints on these forums but people keep posting ideas that would burn this spec into the ground just so they could continue mashing 1 button. It’s insanity.

It was just a CD (like Recklessness) that sped up the rotation in Legion, which was great since it made everything quicker. Then they retooled it into a burst CD and it’s been downhill from there since.

Regardless of any actual changes to Frost, MoTFW’s 30% Obliterate damage passive is a huge roadblock to actual, positive changes for 2h & non-BoS builds, and needs to be the first thing removed (and replaced with FC) to normalize weapons for the spec.

Because if they don’t normalize weapons and keep pushing “DW = BoS, 2h = Obliteration”, then people will continue spamming here for the removal of BoS.

Personally, I don’t really like BoS, but I’m not delusional enough to believe that current Obliteration - and all the changes that were made in the past 2 expansions to prop it up - is a better alternative or has brought anything of value to the overall core of the spec.

It’s entirely the inverse and has been since BFA.

BoS punishes large mistakes, Obliteration punishes minor mistakes. For almost the entire expansion you’ve only dropped BoS because you choose to.

20

I personally think this version of obliteration would be ideal if the spec didnt rely on DND to cleave and more of its damage was shifted to remorseless winter/howling blast to cleave. Overall, I prefer the heavy haste/cdr playstyle of frost whenever its a thing.

Legion and BFA season 4 with corruption were the most fun I’ve had outside of current obliteration for reference.

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