healer/war/dh seems rly rough when they have full pve items as rmpal. vitality conduit or whatever its called (still learning all the new pve nonsense) seems to carry bad healers REALLY hard.
it is a very fun comp to play vs rmx imo atleast. was much nicer as sub specially when u had a rogue who knew how to cheap into hexes but still okay with some cute pandas
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I agree. The Moveās RPS back in Legion with Pika as sub was intriguing to watch. Although we saw a ton of his assa rogue in action especially in tourneys, his sub gameplay was more flashy and unpredictable which made the comp very fun to watch.
yaaā¦ the move was great ya cool . i played it to my first 2500 with my friends we owned!
There is nothing fun to watch about Legion Sub. One dimensional Cheap Shot spam gameplay is a disgrace. The Legion changes to Subtlety were entirely PvE driven, made in spite of that specās awesome history in PvP. Blizzard ruined a timeless masterpiece and they realize it too, which is why Subtlety is intentionally undertuned at the moment and brainless Poison DKs are rampantly PvEing at people up and down the ladder.
Enhance Destro Hpal/Rdruid Ofc.
I mean, thereās a partial agreement to that argument you made there from my side. But I think the perspective you take is strictly relative to subās intricacy prior to Legion (to be more specific Wrath, Cata, and MoP sub variations). Although Legion did alter the overall rotation that we once knew about the spec, I donāt think itās a reasonable thing to say that the spec was completely one dimensional even amid top tier competition/matches.
Even though the spec seemed simplified, there were various other factors that made players like Pika, Whaazz, Akro, Avizuray, Swacked, Nahj, etcā¦ stand out as sub during the expansion. I donāt disagree that the spec was much easier to play when compared to its previous iterations, but from a highly competitive scene Iām sure many top tier players can agree that there were more angles to maximizing the full potential of sub (depending on player, comp, and type of playstyle that the gameplay supported).
I would include WoD Subtlety in your list as well (and note that while Shadow Dance didnāt yet exist in TBC Subtlety, TBC Subtlety had a high skillcap for other reasons and you can go watch Neilyo duel vids to see why). But WoD is usually excluded for the combo points change. The only other real changes MoP -> WoD: pruned Shadow Blades (fine with this), pruned Dismantle (fine with this as well), pruned Redirect (discussed below), and pruned Shadow Walk (would have liked to see it stay since it was fun in Rogue v. Rogue matchups).
About the change to have combo points on the Rogue (and pruning Redirect), this was indeed a buff, but as for the mechanics of the spec it was more of a neutral change than many people realizeā¦ obviously you donāt have a need to use openers like Premed Garrote Slice target1, Cheap Recup target2, --> now you got your buffs up while peeling 2 targets, swap target3 and go (although nothing prevents it, it just isnāt necessarily optimal). But at the same time there is more reward and a larger space of use cases for using @focus or @arena1,2,3 macros for Cheap, Garrote, Rupture, Kidney, Gouge, etc and being able to interact more fluidly with multiple targets. So yes, it was a buff, but WoD Sub was still very fun to play and had technical and rewarding playstyle based around Find Weakness windows, managing many buffs/timers/finishers, and having disruption, burst windows, and hit & run tactics that all interact in fun ways with the core mechanics of the spec (energy/combo points and Find Weakness).
As for the fact that players can still play Sub at a high level, and itās still difficult to doā¦ that is obvious. There are many factors besides excellence in oneās class that are necessary for excellence in arenas, and that includes making the correct reads, situational awareness, good communication, game knowledge and strategy, and still mechanical skill in optimizing damage. But my point was never that being a R1 Subtlety Rogue isnāt hard, my point is that playing Subtlety is no longer cool, fun, or interesting.
@Dillon, if you are interested and have a few minutes to spare, please argue with me about the 2nd paragraph in my above post. I believe your first reaction will be to disagree and I want to see if my argument will be strong enough to convince you.
As I have mentioned earlier, the prunes which you stated in conjunction with the alterations done toward the spec did ultimately diminish its complexity and uniqueness.
Some may beg to differ on that perception as there were players that found sub to be interesting and/or fun in Legion, but lacked the mechanically oriented gameplay that it once harbored (largely due to the prunes of course). Nonetheless, you can say the same for the many classes and specs that received monumental changes towards their rotation/gameplay. For example, I can only wish aff locks adhered to a similar playstyle that they had back in Cata or MoP.
More importantly, I understand where your criticism of the modern sub design is derived from. From a comparative standpoint, its essential to review what the āoldā model offered vs what the ānewā one has (while the majority deem it as a disappointing transition like yourself and I). I was merely implying that the spec, when integrated in certain comps (regardless of how one-dimensional it may seem), still required a culmination of finesse and adaptability to excel.
mw/ww/dk beats rmp and can win vs rmpala if played right, RMD can never say since that comp canāt die to anything before 30% dampening.
Show me on the doll where the Sub Rogue hurt you