You know, with this standard of argument I think I could claim that Sylvanas never intended to kill people in Teldrassil. I mean, nowhere does it say that is what she wanted to do. So I just spin implausible suggestions. Maybe she just wanted to kill hope by scaring them and didn’t realize how fast the tree would catch fire.
What happened with Sylvanas and Garithos in Warcraft 3 is an objective fact. The Forsaken rejected the Alliance. That they sent out emissaries afterwards even though they had already done that suggests that the emissaries were intended to fulfill the same purpose that her reaching out to the Horde did: to dupe people into supporting her. The Horde took the bait, the Alliance didn’t, in part because the Alliance had already been burned by her.
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Objective fact: The only Alliance member that acknowledges the death of Garithos’ believes that the Forsaken eating him alive is better than what he deserved.
Objective fact: There has been zero mention of how Sylvanas killing a racist piece of crap
like Garithos’ affected Forsaken-Alliance perception/relationship. I mean outside of the head of the Alliance’s SI:7 mentioning the Forsaken going lite on Garithos, of course.
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Whether or not the Alliance liked Garithos is irrelevant. The fact that the Forsaken made a conscious decision to betray the Alliance is.
The idea that the Forsaken reneging on a deal with the Alliance and massacring their former allies the moment they no longer needed them wouldn’t leave an impression on how trustworthy the Forsaken were is ludicrous, even if the guy that they betrayed was unpopular.
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Not in a thread titled “What caused the Alliance humans to hate the Forsaken”
Edit:
Objective facts and all.
Yes, the fact that the Forsaken rejected the Alliance and made it their mission to eradicate the Alliance despite the Alliance giving them the benefit of the doubt and cooperating with them based solely on Sylvanas’ word.
Betraying a racist jerk is still a betrayal, and one that ultimately led to the Forsaken’s downfall in BfA by making an enemy of the Eastern Kingdoms superpower.
You also assume that Shaw’s position is universally shared when there’s no indication that this is true. Your average human would only hear about the Alliance resistance collaborating with the Forsaken and getting knifed in the back for it, which is frankly the simple facts of what happened.
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^^not objective fact
^^beside the point
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Sylvanas and the Forsaken didn’t even know he was a racist. She was planning to betray him even before she released them from Detheroc’s control.
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Everything is fine in that case…derp
Source/10 char
You sound like Sylvanas in Before the Storm, as if you can dictate what information people have access to.
No, that is just some weird head canon guess on your part.
“Help me claim this land and then leave it,” was not a good faith deal to begin with. The Alliance made such one sided and untenable gestures from the outset.
Sylvanas was the one who proposed the deal. Garithos just agreed to it. He had no say whatsoever in the forming of the deal. Sylvanas offered the Alliance something in exchange for military assistance, the Alliance provided it, and then Sylvanas betrayed the Alliance, as was her admitted plan from the start.
This is what happens when people persistently argue “lol who cares about the RTS’es?” They start to get their basic facts wrong and create elaborate narratives based on incorrect presumptions that they wouldn’t have if they just watched a youtube video.
How is it that Alliance fans have better knowledge of the Forsaken’s origins than Forsaken fans do?
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It was her idea. And he agreed.
Notice, he did not reply :
“By the King, if you help us free this land, you can reside here in peace!”
He called her an Elf Witch before she even proposes anything.
Yes. He was there as the deal was formed and he willingly accepted. He was offered a deal with blatantly unbalanced terms, and even the current Alliance says he got better than he deserved.
Because he thought she was part of the Scourge. When she insists she isn’t he trusts her based on her word alone.
Sylvanas had already said that all she wanted was vengeance. You can say that she should have asked for more, but she didn’t.
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“It was the Alliance’s fault the Forsaken betrayed them because they assumed that Sylvanas offered a generous deal in good faith and believed her.”
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Horde brains are apparently so broken by the revelation of the basic facts of a Warcraft 3 campaign that details the founding of the Forsaken that they’re trying to whitewash the Alliance by disassociating it from the huge racist that represented it in TFT (even though that same racist is considered a foundational element for why the Blood Elves left the Alliance.)
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Yeah to be honest Garithos was barely even “The Alliance” at this point in history. The rejection of Garithos by Matthias Shaw, and other lore that tells us he led the remants of Lordaeron by sheer virtue of being the highest ranked man left in the area, despite not being overly competent. He mistreated any and all nonhuman aid sent to help him, and generally did more harm than good.
So did the Forsaken reject the Alliance, or did they reject Garithos?
I’d argue that the Forsaken rejected Garithos specifically - someone who would use them to reclaim their homeland, and then tell them, I quote:
Now your business is done. Now I want you wretched animals out of my city, before I–
At that point, the order is given to kill Garithos. But the threat in his words is clear. Garithos had no interest in diplomatic relations or coexistance with the Forsaken. He’s clearly threatening them. In his eyes they have no place in the Capital City, nor are they creatures deserving of any respect. While he never finished his sentence, I doubt he was going to say "before I give you all a big kiss for your help 
". There was a direct threat implicit in his words.
Does that mean the Forsaken were innocent in this paradigm? No. Both sides were using the other as necessary reinforcements to take Capital City. Sylvanas blatantly lied to Garithos, saying that she would return the Capital to them, while never intending to do so. She was manipulating and using Garithos. But make no mistake, Garithos was using the undead as well.
I think it’s very clear that he had no interest whatsoever in any diplomatic relations or friendship between his forces and the forsaken, beyond one combined assault where they work together to drive out a major threat in the region.
So no, I don’t think the act of betraying Garithos was a rejection of the Alliance. I think the act of betraying Garithos was an act of self-interest and self preservation on the part of Sylvanas and her Forsaken forces. If it was an explicit and intentional rejection of the Alliance as a whole, Sylvanas would never have sent emissaries to Stormwind, as outlined in Chronicle.
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As an appendix to my previous post
The Alliance remnants
By the time of the Third War, Garithos has risen to the rank of Grand Marshal, promoted not necessarily due to his own abilities, but by his father’s reputation and title. He was the highest-ranking survivor of Lordaeron’s military after the Scourge’s rampage across Lordaeron, and he recruited what forces he could muster from both volunteers and conscripted civilians. Cut off from the chain of command, Garithos gave his human army the mission that he assumed the Alliance should have always had: the preservation of humanity above all else. Ignorant of Garithos’ policies, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge sent him aid, recognizing him as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron’s government, and certainly the strongest warlord in the area.[6] The healthiest blood elves led by Kael’thas Sunstrider, prince of the ruined Quel’Thalas, also joined his army.[8] Garithos did not enjoy having to work with the blood elves[9] or dwarves,[10] believing that the Alliance’s mission should be to preserve humanity above all else[6] and that the Alliance should never have accepted the elves in the first place.[9][8]
Source: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Othmar_Garithos
I think this is pretty fascinating and well researched evidence that Garithos really didn’t even formally represent the Alliance at this point. The Alliance was in disarray and he was an incompetent commander with little to no direct connection to the chain of command.
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None of this matters because
A) The deal was that the Alliance would get their lands back in exchange for military assistance to Sylvanas. This deal was proposed by Sylvanas herself, and the Alliance made no modifications to it. The Alliance upheld their end of the bargain. The Forsaken did not.
B) As per the video above, Sylvanas was planning to betray the Alliance from the start. Long before he said meany mean words to her that you’re arguing just hurt Sylvanas feelings so much that she had no choice but to massacre the people who had just bled and died on her behalf. Before the very first word left her mouth she was plotting to betray them. Varimathras makes a note of it, and Sylvanas confirms it herself.
It was the Forsaken who rejected the Alliance. Sylvanas had rejected the Alliance even before she proposed the deal.
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In your own source it confirms that he was considered sufficiently representative for the Alliance to commit troops to him and put them under his direct command.
In fact he was considered sufficiently representative that Quel’thalas sent troops under his command including its crown prince. It’s the same reason his actions prompted Quel’thalas to withdraw from the Alliance a second time.
Frankly, it makes sense given that despite being a huge prick, until Detheroc himself intervened Garithos was winning against the Scourge. He had even reclaimed Dalaran.
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