What a Marksman learned from Rogue class

Classes Rogue
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I’ve been humiliated enough by rogues. Just recently, it was one from my own server pair. So I had a talk with him.

I told him, “Imagine playing a rogue that doesn’t have evasion and vanish, doesn’t have a baseline stun, doesn’t have blind or sap, and when it comes to stealth, can only stealth for no longer than 1 min and no restealthing before 1 min.”

“That’s what a [Marksman] hunter is: a rogue completely naked of CC and defensive cooldowns.” Now we know that good rogues are wise and would never put themselves in such a situation where they don’t have a CD they can use, but as a MM, that has been my un-reality the whole time.

But I realize that Marksman can’t compete with sheer damage that is parsed with hardcasts(which I also remarked that rogues don’t ever have to hardcast their stuff). As MM progressed on, we’ve become more proc-reliant, which is far more inferior than having good abilities ON-DEMAND. When I’m fighting a rogue, I don’t always have certain abilities that proc when I absolutely need to.

That’s why I want to retire after S3, because 1) I know that S4 isn’t going to do anything and 2) the lone wolf MM is a poor imitation of a ranged Rogue. If your class had a full ranged spec, tell me where to sign up because I can’t deal with the Hunter’s toolkit anymore. In a word, it SUCKS for stealther play.

I’m not saying this with jealousy or anything, but rogues are far more efficient than hunters in the field in everything that’s stealth. We’re only better in having a superior mechanic but it has unforgiving limits at times. I prefer to play ranged because that can be anywhere from 0-40 yds, whereas with melee it’s only just at 0. I feel ashamed in hindsight, even a little stupid. My setup is something no good rogue would ever dream of doing. As a Marks, I can’t do any damage for free, I get two incaps which only pauses the fight for me to get some non-offensive globals through, but you guys can do all the damage you can for free.

For three expansions I played this, and “only now, at the end, do I understand” that Hunters are going nowhere as a stealth-capable class. I thought I could compete with rogues using petless camo but it doesn’t seem like it, because I can’t realistically engage rogues of lesser skill just all the time. I have “paid the price for my abundance of false visions”. But would 9.0 change my mind? I’m looking for something that’s comparable to WoD standards because those were the last days of Hunters being stealth powerhouses.

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i dont know about arenas but i have a marksman homie that blows people up in BGs. like legit 2 shots them.

i like having him on my team.

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This was in an open-world situation. I’ve gotten bored of BGs because of bots, premades, and basically how your team follows the cookie cutter strategy. They’re fine supporters to have, but I’m tired now.

It’s been the same song-and-dance for 5 years, just about.

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If you picked hunter to be a stealth class I don’t know what to tell you other than learn to read class descriptions better. Hunters aren’t meant, and never have been. to sneak around.

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I was a brave pioneer. I did it, and I did so very well, especially in Warlords. It was thinking outside the box, but now, it’s either thinking out of the box a new way or going back in the box. Sneaking around became important when we were so weak without so many other abilities. But Blizzard, like you inferred, is not likely going to expand on this concept, and at this level I don’t want to compete this way anymore.

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Being a pioneer is great, but honestly, that just means you’re playing the class differently than intended. Sometimes such gameplay gets rewarded with buffs by the devs, but the reality is that stealth, for a hunter, is not meant to be the way it’s played, but rather a method of crowd control. Instead of stunning the mob, you are able to momentarily avoid them. 1 minute should give you time to get where you intend to go, by sneaking past your foe. None of your mechanics are actually based around stealth or being stealthed. For a hunter, stealth is simply crowd control

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this is why i switch mains pretty much every expansion. im not chasing fotm, its the opposite. some specs just end up being trash with no real reason to play it. only doing a disservice to yourself investing a bunch of time into them

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To me this is why Hunters and Rogues have been at odds for a long time. Both classes want what each other has because they believe the grass to be greener on the other side. In reality both classes lack certain things that would make them the absolute unquestioned all-rounder.

As a Rogue I’d love to have actual Bloodlust (we have free lust drums now if we’re a Leatherworker but they’re still 5% less Haste than actual bloodlust), I’d love to have baseline 10/15% Leech that all Hunters can have with a Ferocity pet, I’d love the range so I don’t have to run a marathon every time a boss moves around the arena, I’d also love the range so I’m not next to useless in epic battlegrounds apart from throwing Wound Poison coated daggers at people so that the actual range DPS can kill them. I’d love to have the choice between melee and range and access to pretty much every useful ability in the game depending on what pet I choose. I’d love a minion to tank for me so I don’t just barely survive fights against some rare elites by the skin of my teeth. I’d love not to require double the weapon drops that a Hunter does for no benefit.

But all of this comes at a price, even if we were simply given a ranged spec it’d lose access to a lot of what makes Rogues unique for the sake of balance. Rogues are truly a specialist class that are only truly good at certain things and the type that are usually listed as “for experienced players” on the class select screen for those who want to try something outside of the traditional box. Meanwhile Hunters have gradually become the “jack of all trades, master of none” class as almost every useful ability in the game has been given to their pets and they can choose to use them in both ranged and melee. If they were given the mastery over stealth and CC that Rogues have then they would have to give up a lot of these abilities and maybe even Bloodlust.

In summary neither class can have it all. In my opinion Hunters have ended up in a much better place though since they can choose to do whatever they want whereas Rogues are very restricted and have Sutblety as part of the class which is one of the most dead specs in the game.

Reminds me of when Combat Rogues still had access to Shurkien Toss in MoP and WoD which also gave them a ranged auto-attack. I used it so much in World PvP, Battlegrounds, and especially Ashran to take out opponents from afar while spending the combo points on SnD and Deadly Throw. It worked really well and wasn’t even that overpowered since we couldn’t build up to red buff or do any real CC with it. No clue as to why they removed it as it was a fun option. Blizzard bringing back talents like this and also maybe one that reduces the cooldown on Camouflage are probably the best hope for the classes crossing over each other again in the future.

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Thanks for the kind replies. I go the way of all the Jedi. However, there are instances where Blizzard has recognized through achievements things that can’t quite be done conventionally. Certain rep-based achievements come to mind. It is to say that playing against the grain of the conventional has been proven to be rewarding.

It’s an ambivalence of toughening up for the challenge of underperforming specs and refusing to hold Blizzard accountable for their failures in the same. I’m adamant for not touching anything that Blizz absolutely NEEDS to fix but at the same time things that are actually challenging are energizing and motivating. Team Fortress 2, for example, got dropped in less than an hour because it was too easy. I’m not a big fan of “too easy”.

But I’m not a big fan of “too hard” either. Based on what could occur in 9.0, Hunters might not even have Camouflage at all. If they were to become “vanillaized”, that’s it; they’re no longer a stealth class period, and I would then be a relic of the past. Nobody in Retail would ever be able to accomplish what I pulled off previous xpacs ago. While that puts a big nerd smile on my face, I’d rather keep on hunting.

I still don’t know what I do next. What is there to do next?

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its simpler than that for me, i play specs i like and i dont like them when they suck

not spending a bunch of time on something that under preforms and no one wants around. the sheer time played we put into wow means i need to really like what im playing

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spotted the fotm reroller

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It’s not my style. I was blessed to not have a MMO background.

I do like Bizzel’s argument. Only Blizzard has the final authority on class balance. The community however has the same or different ideas. I wouldn’t put up with shoddy work but I’m not the kind of guy that would just QQ out of incon-VEEN-ience.

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oh nooo

im so hurt

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Potions exist.

You can have damn near 100%up of stealth as a hunter with them. In world pvp what you’re talking about is completely do-able. Even in randoms.

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I’m talking about MOBILE stealth. Those pots don’t allow.

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They do, lol.

Even for the potion that has you stationary you wait for camo to come back up then move again.

I’m not surprised you’re suffering in wpvp with the lack of creativity…

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Which means you can do nothing for one minute min.

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Nope. You can scout.

Or just link the ones that allow movement.

Rogues are and should be the only class that can do a lot from stealth. I think it’s fine hunters can do what they do from camo cause it’s a talent.

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We might not even have Camo unless it’s given baseline. Nothing from the Deep Dive session is substantive that Hunters would graduate to a well equipped PvPer that doesn’t have to be a support role, never mind stealth capability. I’ll still keep tabs on developments but my arms are sore. Someone else can carry water for this dogcrap class.

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sir hunters have plenty of tool.

If you cant make use of them, then its obvi not the class for you.