We're not making enough noise about layering

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
610

Ah that makes sense. Well normally I’d agree, but we already saw what happened with class changes and the BFA beta. People spoke up, but it wasn’t -that- many and we ended up with the class design we have now. I just want to try and avoid a similar outcome because I feel they only address the things that get massive attention.

611

No actually letting layering receive as much attention as possible is perfectly ok. This isn’t a minor bug or nuisance, this is something that will affect the game in a major way and has a major chunk of the community upset.

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612

If modern society shows anything, whining about something enough will accomplish things even if only to shut people up. Look at this June, ~1-2% of the population made the month revolve around them. I’m actually more happy to see the side that usually remains silent finally figure it out.

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613

Well first of all I think even just Phase 1 is far too much and will cause a huge amount of issues while it is present. On top of that I don’t actually trust Blizzard’s layering timeline after they already changed it from just the starting zones to ALL of the zones for ALL of phase 1.

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614

If they were to only give us 10 servers without layering, or with completely locked layers from character creation that will merge with population declines later, just to shut us up I’ll consider it a win and resubscribe.

Also, thank god the 2% month is over. Talk about MSM brainwashing.

615

Blizzard already stated that layering is only going to be used for the launch and will be removed as soon as there’s not 1000 people in the starting zones fighting over the same mobs. Sure they can do what they did at the original wow launch but i dont know if you remember this. The servers were down for days and days, so server que’s is not the answer. People seem to think layering is going to be used for the whole game. It’s only to deal with the initial flood of players on launch month, blizz already stated this. Also the old dynamic respawn system was horrible. Mobs would spawn on top of you 10 seconds after they died.

616

Turns out Vanilla game designer Kevin Jordan shares your thoughts about layering:

https://clips.twitch.tv/ResilientAmericanDolphinSoonerLater

Sounds familiar? :stuck_out_tongue: If you (the #changers, #Ionpromised, #layeringisanecessaryevil, #iputupwithlayeringjustgivemesomethingvaguelyresemblingClassicalready) don’t believe us that there’s clear game breaking issues with layering, maybe at least you’ll give an ear to one of the designers who created the game and helped make it into the legendary MMORPG it became.

#NOCHANGES!

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617

A lot of people hate forced CRZ, Sharding and WM and like me who quit retail because of it. You really think Blizzard care? They only care about cutting costs and that means broken systems like this to keep server costs at the bare minimum.

618

Did not recognize the post at first. Was missing some paragraphs :slight_smile:

Let’s put context into place shall we Mr #Nochanges

If you take time to listen to everything Kevin was talking about, ya know, opening the whole video, to which there are some GREAT pearls of wisdom in here, you will see that this clip was in response to this question.

@kevinjordan what do you think of the argument that layer exploiting of resources won’t matter because high value resources are time gated?

I do not think anyone has claimed that exploiting layer mechanics is acceptable. In fact, I believe MANY have argued that we want the fixes in place.

We get that you are against it. That is fine. We get that you can’t sit down and at least reason with us. But pulling things out of context to “prove” your point is reaching.

I do thank you for your passion though.

619

Honestly this is the biggest issue with the whole layering/phasing scenario, I think. It really does negatively effect the community on PVP servers. I experienced this during the whole stress test last week on a PVP server. We had alliance raiding Orgrimmar so obviously I went to help defend, and when I got to Org there were no alliance. Why? Because they were on a different layer than I.
SO FRUSTRATING. When I finally got invited to the defense group, the battle was over and the alliance were trying to phase to a different layer where no defense was mounted in order to attack again. Where is the fun (much less what is the point) in that? It takes the fun/comradarie/POINT of PVP servers away, really. I’m really disappointed that this layering/phasing/whatever is going to be a thing in Classic. I want classic servers to be just that, classic servers. :frowning:

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620

I watched the whole video, just like i did with most of them for the past year. And when i clipped this i even put in the question so context is clear. He even reads the question out himself before he answers it.
You get what you see in the clip.

There is full context provided in the clip. Not sure why you feel the need to clarify when he already did it himself, without me saying anything extra.

Also, i’ve been on the forums for the past weeks sitting down and reasoning with people.
Some have done so, and thumbs up to them, but many haven’t and instead tried to pull some lowblow moves to try discredit clear issues and arguments that show this system brings with it game breaking consequences. Which now are even acknowledged by a Vanilla dev himself, suddenly changing the tone (good).

As long as layering is layering, aka dynamic, it’s gonna be ripe for exploits that upset the whole ingame balance in every area of it. If you’re approving of layering, you’re also indirectly approving of it changing the game and providing ways for players to use it to their convenience, no matter the cost.
Unless they lock layers, people are going to figure out ways aplenty to make use of it for their advantages.
If they put in another fix to their “fix”, then there’s only more issues that are gonna pop up and the game’s changing along with it further.

It’s 100% not worth messing up the whole game just to try to put in what seems like a nice solution on paper, but just ends up having players jump through tech design loops at the cost of their own experience for weeks or months.

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621

Have you NOT even read about the fixes they are implementing and trying to fix these issues?

Have you not, for once, even tried to think about the outcome without any system in place at all?

And don’t give me this “museum” stuff. We know this is not about that.

622

I thought was supposed to be disabled in Capital Cities.

Pretty sure I heard that in a Tips interview with Ion and Omar during the classic summit.

623

Yes. But it gets to a point where people start considering it as flooding rather than anything else. Mostly because people either suggest NO possible solution for layering or they say the exact same thing the other 500 “Layering is bad” posts have.

624

If you wanna critcize me personally, that’s fine. But as with anything or anyone you wanna criticize, it’s best to first familiarize yourself with what you’re up against.

I’ve already given you a hint here what i’ve been up to:

If you want the answer to that question, you’re free to look for one of my posts adressing it, of which there are plenty.

I’m not gonna go into again here, because so far you’ve not shown that you’re willing to put in the effort to read what i’m saying, or research before critizicing me, so i’m not gonna put in the effort to reply to you specifically about certain issues. Because here again,

This is something i’ve adressed in detail in a previous post. Yet you just assume i haven’t even given it any thought, even though i’ve already told you that

If you really cared if i had given it any thought, you’d know that i had because you’d seen my detailed thoughts and arguments about these exact issues.

If you wanna discuss with me, it’s not gonna happen by you assuming i’m doing/not doing certain things, when i’ve clearly given you plenty of hints that i do exactly that, and even in my post history you can see after just a glance that i have given this more thought than i’d even like.

If you’re looking for a brawl with no purpose, you’re at the wrong address.

625

Walls of text a valid point do not make.

You have passion. You just don’t wish to communicate as is evident by your response.

I won’t be answering you… so just save the space.

Layering will not kill Classic alone. Narrow-minded thinking and fear mongering will do far more damage than any system in place to help at launch.

The final word on that matter to you. Thank you.

626

Thanks for proving my point that you’re not willing to have an actual discussion. Had a feeling you’d do that.

I do. But I’m not passionate about trying to talk with those who aren’t ready to listen.

Ups. Space taken again.

And you know that how? You don’t. Just like i don’t know for sure what’s gonna happen. All that we can go off of are predictions, and some predictions are more likely to happen than others because we got plenty of history to draw from, and figure out where things are gonna head taking it in mind.

Layering is looking to be another fail, just like sharding/CRZ. Instead this time, it will be in a game that’s expected to be 1 way only: Classic, as in a faithful recreation of Vanilla. And it’s not gonna be. Which suggests it’s gonna fail just by that point alone.

I do appreciate though how elaborately you show that you’ve never had interest in an honest debate to begin with, and now instead try to sneak in some convenient labels serving your PoV in the end just to get in a little bit of poison before you leave. Quite funny actually.

Why thank you! Hope you’ll find a more entertaining conversation that serves your personal preferences.

627

I disagree. It will be very heavily populated on launch for sure. Especially populated in terms of everyone logging in trying to get on at the same time.

There were plenty of big streamers playing in the beta and getting a lot of attention for Classic. I think you may also be wrong here. I don’t think everyone and their dog knows about classic coming out but plenty of players know for sure.

I agree here, I think while the population rush happens there will be some fragmenting for people who aren’t in a guild or partied up.

I agree here, this is my biggest concern about layering. Because of this I am hoping that the layering is phased out early into Classic release.

I don’t think this will benefit. In the end, the servers will diminish without layering as there will be too many people spread across servers as no one want to wait in a long Q to play the game.

After the initial rush of players dies down or people lose interested, as they always do, the server layers will blend together leaving the server more populated. I’m just curious how it will work outside of starting areas.

628

Layering has to go for the game to perform well. Putting aside what you think people should think - optics are everything. No amount of tweaks/adjustments to the system will change the outcome. People hear that there’s phasing of any type and they stop paying attention. Consumers have short attention spans and low tolerance.

629

Blizzard never said “It’ll exist until the end of Phase 1”. They said repeatedly it’ll be removed after a few weeks. Ion even promised this on camera. They all laughed when people suggested it would interfere with world bosses, and said it would be “long gone” by then.

And just like any new server, the handful of people at that point will have enough resources that they don’t need to layer hop for more.

Plus if they implement the Rested Zones changes, most of the hopping will be far little reward for effort.