We're not making enough noise about layering

[anon25736332]

The whole enchilada

Lunch!

[Lovinae-emerald-dream]

So when I played in the stress test, what does that have anything to do with streamers? Nothing at all.

but who are we kidding arguing with you is pointless.

If that’s the case why are you in the thread still? To derail it and take it off topic perhaps?

[Bricklethumb-anvilmar]

If that’s the case why are you in the thread still?

Talking about breakfast and lunch…

[Lovinae-emerald-dream]

Talking about breakfast and lunch…

Thought so.

[Lchnssmnstr-kiljaeden]

Oh no, I think since its been announced the 50+ threads a week talking about layering is pretty well covered…

[anon25736332]

why are you in this thread, you’re not interested in discussing the problem ( that has been discussed a great deal already) you’re here to make a singular ‘’ layering bad remove it! now! or else’’ statement, that’s not how discussions work, and if me posting a recipe derails the thread entirely. then nobody was all that serious about the discussion now where they.

[Graff-nathrezim]

No, layering is necessary. As long as it’s used judiciously it will be a good thing. Think of it as dynamic server merges, once the game evens out it will no longer be necessary.

For those of us who played at launch it was a mess. Layering, done correctly, should avoid that problem.

[Vitolri-moon-guard]

Sorry for the super long post. Late to the party, and wanted to go over some stuff.

If you need a specific recipe to make the cake I’m looking for, you are adding in an ingredient I did not enjoy, that was not in the original recipe. You are saying let’s just see if the recipe will turn out the way you liked and remembered it as.

You were the kid that only order chicken fingers at restaurants, weren’t you? Don’t worry. I was too, until I learned that opening my mind to new things could make my favorite thing better. I now dip in bbq sauce.

and now they have a second chance with “Classic”

Classic is not Vanilla. It is a modern recreation of the essence of Vanilla. They are different, and despite all the opinions going around, Layering is needed - or something entirely new and better. But that would likely turn out as a scuffed system as they’d only have a short time to develop and implement it.

Layer sucks, sure. Fully admit. But sometimes that suck makes it worth it in the long run. Economies won’t be permanently destroyed by high levels abusing the market for maybe a week at best. People won’t be popping in and out aside from people joining their own groups anyway. Layering has little impact on the sole player, and on the ‘global’ scale, it’s still quite limited. What it DOES do, is attempt to ensure your server isn’t dead after a few weeks. This would cause them to either mash servers together(Which could heavily mess with server economies, balances, and name disputes, among other things) or leave dead servers active and watch those numbers dwindle more.

tl;dr - Lesser of two evils. Let it play out. No more hyperbolics. It’s better in the long run(in all aspects)

Those of you who want layering, you may not realize the effect it may have on the success of this game. A lot of people will not be happy with the results of it and it may effect how many people end up playing/quitting etc.

A lot of people wouldn’t be happy with dead servers or 4 hour queues. They latter would quit before even TRYING the game.

I don’t want to be at a disadvantage in comparison to people who have friends and can exploit layer hopping to not only dodge out of PvP but also grab chests, kill rares, get gathering nodes, buy limited stock from vendors in multiple layers .

Exploit. Meaning it would be punishable. If you see someone at Gurubashi grab a chest, then immediately disappear, report them. Blizz police will take care of the wrong-doers.

There are going to be people forced into layerhopping to grab rare items/spawn/nodes to compete in the economy. This doesn’t sound fun at all.

No one’s forced to do that. And for the few weeks it will even be active, it’ll barely be noticeable on the grand scale, if it even reaches that level of exploitation.

Taking the wait and see approach is not a good one for this situation, wait and see what exactly? That they might remove layering some day?

Stated that they will already. Estimated at a few weeks. A month or so at most. (I believe Ion was specifically quoted saying “Couple of weeks”)

free server migrations from the dead servers to populated ones, where only your character, their levels and reputation levels & quest items carry over, but their items/armor/money does not, unless its quest rewards.

So said player has to effectively abandon all of their non-quest obtained items(And we must assume gold, too, as that would affect the economy too. And their professions.) because their server died? In the case that they could have just dealt with layering for a few weeks and had a less impacted server? That doesn’t seem remotely logical.

You mean the army of faceless ghosts you’ll never meet again because of the constant layer hopping that’s going to happen from grouping and relogs?

Hyperbole at it’s finest?

(which old WoW’s launches and overall success doesn’t suggest that at all to be an important factor, in fact queues didn’t matter in the big picture

Old WoW didn’t have 389472935 different clones to compete against. It was fresh and that’s what carried those queues. It was the rage. Nowadays, there are many other options of games to play if you don’t want 30+ minutes of your game time every time want to play be the log in boss.

Anyway, is it possible for us to all agree that we need Blizzard, to discuss this with us before launch?

It’s a cop out response to this, but you are aware that Blizzard may not be allowed to discuss certain facets of the system before it’s complete? These stress tests are for layering and server stability. Thus, it’s not done yet. The suits might not want the devs/community management to engage in the discussion until they’ve finalized their version, since, as you know, once they say something favorable to us, the playerbase tends to nail them to it.

(Mini-note. Since the thread was already 200+ posts, skipping some discussion. Sorry of any of the above was proven inaccurate - though emphasis on proven, not speculated.)

[anon25736332]

– hello police, i’d like to report a murder-

[Enrik-wyrmrest-accord (Enrik)]

No point in trying with these people. They are insane and out of touch with reality.

It’s like walking into a fast food restaurant and watching someone abuse the service worker for slightly over cooking their cheeseburger.

[Lovinae-emerald-dream]

No point in trying with these people. They are insane and out of touch with reality.

It’s like walking into a fast food restaurant and watching someone abuse the service worker for slightly over cooking their cheeseburger.

I know what you mean, glad you are here Enrik.

[Bricklethumb-anvilmar]

Anyway, is it possible for us to all agree that we need Blizzard, to discuss this with us before launch?

Thanks to the great post above me. I had missed this one.

NO. . Blizzard dont have to talk to anyone. Well, the shareholders and their bosses and team leads. . ok they have to talk to someone.

TIme to make another cup of coffee.

[Lovinae-emerald-dream]

Classic is not Vanilla.

Ok that may well be true, but would you disagree that most of the players interested in playing it want vanilla? Is that not the expectation?

A lot of people wouldn’t be happy with dead servers or 4 hour queues. They latter would quit before even TRYING the game.

So we’re supposed to quit and suffer instead? You are saying this game is really meant for BFA players to try and not the original vanilla players?

Exploit. Meaning it would be punishable. If you see someone at Gurubashi grab a chest, then immediately disappear, report them. Blizz police will take care of the wrong-doers.

I fail to see how you can have layering without those exploits not being in the game, if you weren’t part of the testings you can easily look up videos of these and some of them may even happen to you unexpectedly while you are playing.
If you take away the exploits you take away the functionality of layering itself. If you catch my drift? The exploits are the unintended consequence of layering.

No one’s forced to do that. And for the few weeks it will even be active, it’ll barely be noticeable on the grand scale, if it even reaches that level of exploitation.

Yes they are forced to do that as I said if they want to “compete” in the economy. You need to understand how multiplayer games work, this is normal, people go out of their way to compete to do things in games even when its a pain. Take a look at multiboxing as an example.

Stated that they will already. Estimated at a few weeks. A month or so at most. (I believe Ion was specifically quoted saying “Couple of weeks”)

Even a few weeks is far to long, you can reach level 15 in less than a day if you wanted to, so the players who will be playing every day will run into a lot of issues with layering.

So said player has to effectively abandon all of their non-quest obtained items(And we must assume gold, too, as that would affect the economy too. And their professions.) because their server died? In the case that they could have just dealt with layering for a few weeks and had a less impacted server? That doesn’t seem remotely logical.

Yes their gold to, but not their professions.
I think it’s more logical than layering, considering the balance of the effects of both. At least they have a choice to stay on their server OR move their character rather than forced layering.

Blizzard may not be allowed to discuss certain facets of the system before it’s complete? These stress tests are for layering and server stability. Thus, it’s not done yet. The suits might not want the devs/community management to engage in the discussion until they’ve finalized their version, since, as you know, once they say something favorable to us, the playerbase tends to nail them to it.

That could be true but that’s pretty pathetic if it is. And people wonder why anyone is against certain corporations and their shady tactics. Seriously, and people are ok with this?

[Gurktork-malganis]

Layering is only phase 1 right? Doesn’t seem like a big deal. Maybe a few people will get their arena grand master trinket quickly and some extra black lotus but it won’t last long.

[Badminou-stormrage (Badminou)]

I hope it doesn’t make it into live, it really isn’t a great idea or “fix”.

[Bricklethumb-anvilmar]

So we’re supposed to quit and suffer instead? You are saying this game is really meant for BFA players to try and not the original vanilla players?

Classic is for EVERYONE. Not just a subgroup of anything.

[Velquez-moon-guard]

Layering is only phase 1 right? Doesn’t seem like a big deal. Maybe a few people will get their arena grand master trinket quickly and some extra black lotus but it won’t last long.

Not a bad point but I can easily see them keeping layering especially if there is a much larger population than they foresaw which is definitely possible. They already said it would be just the starting zones and then changed their mind on that.

[Vitolri-moon-guard]

Ok that may well be true, but would you disagree that most of the players interested in playing it want vanilla? Is that not the expectation?

When Blizzard openly comes out and says “It will not be the same. It will be close” no. The expectation is a Vanilla-like experience with(EDIT: LIMITED and ONLY NECESSARY) modern alterations. (Edit cont’d: Like working off the current engine/client, and the current layering situation)

So we’re supposed to quit and suffer instead? You are saying this game is really meant for BFA players to try and not the original vanilla players?

The only people quitting right now are the ones having irrational fits about a system that isn’t even implement in full nature. Just a few stress tests(Where they’re actively shifting those numbers, which are the cause of the seemingly ‘random popping in and out’ of players), or third party views of how the game is working. If you want to quit now, you wouldn’t have played the game either way. Layering is far from the worst enemy.

I fail to see how you can have layering without those exploits not being in the game

There are exploits in all sorts of facets of the game. (We can look at the “World First Lich King” kill. That was using engineering. And ingame item. And people STILL exploited it. The anchoring point is that Blizzard acted upon it. It’s easy to think they’d act on this one, too.

Yes they are forced to do that as I said if they want to “compete” in the economy. You need to understand how multiplayer games work, this is normal, people go out of their way to compete to do things in games even when its a pain. Take a look at multiboxing as an example.

I do understand how these games work. I also understand that the only meaningful effect the exploiting of layers would have is for a very limited time in comparison to the overall life expectation of the game. If you think 2-3 weeks, at most, of someone taking slightly more of a resources than the rest of the folks trying to farm it as well, then you’re the one that needs to learn how multiplayer games work.

Even a few weeks is far to long, you can reach level 15 in less than a day if you wanted to, so the players who will be playing every day will run into a lot of issues with layering.

Weasel words. A very dedicated few who go ahead of the pack, unaffected by multiple layers, will run into issues of layering (With no one around them), and now suffer because… what exactly? What is that player going to suffer from? (To help you out, if anything, those players would be the ones GAINING from layering, as they would be in prime positions to exploit it. You’re welcome for the free point).

Yes their gold to, but not their professions.
I think it’s more logical than layering, considering the balance of the effects of both. At least they have a choice to stay on their server OR move their character rather than forced layering.

No. There is no way you can reason that to be logical (Or more logical than layering). I’ll wait for it, but I’m 100% certain there is no rational way to do so. (The decision above is “Get rid of basically all my stuff, or stay on a low-pop server” vs Deal with layering for a couple weeks and have a healthier server in the end.)

That could be true but that’s pretty pathetic if it is. And people wonder why anyone is against certain corporations and their shady tactics. Seriously, and people are ok with this?

This is how ALL business works. The creative bodies within the company are generally signed under heavy NDA, and can’t discuss this with costumers/consumers. This is done so that one of their employees A) Don’t accidentally expose something early that they shouldn’t, B) Make a promise that they, as the non-deciding part of the company, cannot keep, C) Allows for the shift/recreation/removal of systems they would rather not have to explain the ins and outs of when it won’t be as explained anyway. It’s normal. And it’s an understood facet of how business works.

[Heidene-kelthuzad]

Old WoW didn’t have 389472935 different clones to compete against. It was fresh and that’s what carried those queues. It was the rage. Nowadays, there are many other options of games to play if you don’t want 30+ minutes of your game time every time want to play be the log in boss.

I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to compare WoW to games that are out of it’s genre. MMORPG’s are their own thing for a good reason.

They have a niche audience, one that’s not been catered to for a very long while now since the end of WotlK, which was the end of the era of traditional MMORPG values.
After that, every mmorpg game out there including WoW chose to change the genre up, and make it more like other games outside of it’s own genre in an attempt to attract a new audience that shares the desires you just named.

The funny thing is, they did attract a new audience. One that is millions smaller than the MMORPG lover audience they had back in Vanilla - WotlK.

There’s barely any of those old players left in modern WoW, for good reason.
It’s a completely different game, and far removed from traditional mmorpg genre values.
However the game still doesn’t fully transfer over to that which it aspires to be (basically Diablo), and instead is this weird mish mash that tries to call itself an MMORPG when it’s not. Sure, some people still like that confusing mess for various reasons, fair enough.

Other options aside from modern WoW are just games very similar to modern WoW. I’ve tried many of them, hoping it would be more like the MMORPG’s i got introduced to 12 years ago. They weren’t, far from it.

They just keep copying eachothers mediocre formulas barely resembling a real quality MMORPG, and make the whole genre lackluster compared to what it could be, and has been.
It has been amazing, a cultural phenomenon even, back when they stuck to the game design choices that were very appropriate for it’s particular MMORPG genre, and therefore pleased that niche audience so well that they all ate up old WoW like it was warm bread.

---

The Classic team said “they have food” for our appetite.
And they do, the finest food out of all. But if the first bite is gonna be spoiled with layering, they lose, and the players lose too.
All that has been asked for, is the same bread with the same ingredients as back then, and it’s on Blizzard to serve that: the exact same bread they remember. The bread that tastes like home. Whole grains. No gluten.
Cause their audience is a special one. And a special audience requires and deserves special

[anon25736332]

Can you guys avoid melodrama? it makes you look insane.