We need RDF: wrath hype is over. 5 man groups have gone down by 85%

[Zaalg-ashkandi]

Uh, that graph shows the same sub count for late Wrath and early Cata. Other graphs even show it going up a bit into Cata.

[Littlerascal-area-52]

Yeah, that is why I believe you can contribute a large amount of the late Wrath increase to people coming back early for the new expansion.

[Zaalg-ashkandi]

People didn’t come back. It kept rising throughout Wrath.

[Littlerascal-area-52]

Good point. It was a steady increase then…

[Zaalg-ashkandi]

A net gain of 1 is still a net gain. People pretend subs fell in Wrath. That’s just not true.

[Kurathis-pagle]

@Adlez-atiesh

By this logic we should all be playing retail and just not using those features we don’t like.

…what?

If someone doesn’t like Classic, no, they don’t have to play it. The same goes for RDF - if you don’t like it, you don’t have to use it.

@Adlez-atiesh

We can just all play retail

Umm… what?

I get the feeling you thought this sounded a lot smarter than it actually is.

[Adlez-atiesh]

Nope, just pointing out the fallacy of saying “If you don’t like it don’t use it.” That is simply not how it works. If you want to argue one way or the other about why RDF is good/bad ok, I get it. But people that argue you just don’t have to use any system you don’t like, well, what is the difference between classic and retail if you are going to argue that you can simply not use any system you don’t like and it is the same as if that system didn’t exist? Do you honestly believe that the inclusion of RDF won’t pretty much mandate that everyone that wants to PuG a dungeon won’t have to use RDF? There will definitely be far fewer people trying to form groups manually or in LFG.

Once again, I’m pretty much neutral on the inclusion of RDF but arguments based on “optionality” are nonsense.

You can play retail just as if it were classic if you don’t use any of the features that aren’t in classic. So, what is the difference between the two? The major difference is in the systems that are included in each. Discussions on the merits of including/excluding specific features/systems should be based on the merits/impact of the systems being discussed because pretty much “any” system can be considered “optional”.

[Kurathis-pagle]

@Adlez-atiesh

That is simply not how it works.

That IS how it works. If you don’t like onions, are you going to order a burger from McDonald’s with or without onions?

@Adlez-atiesh

Do you honestly believe that the inclusion of RDF won’t pretty much mandate that everyone that wants to PuG a dungeon won’t have to use RDF?

Given your very next sentence:

@Adlez-atiesh

There will definitely be far fewer people trying to form groups manually or in LFG.

This proves that it will not be required for players to use RDF if they do not want to.

Additionally, in 2009 and later, we still manually formed groups. It was VERY common for DPS-specific classes that couldn’t heal or tank, to attempt to form the group prior to going into the Dungeon Finder to help speed up the process. Guilds would still form groups manually prior to entering RDF.

@Adlez-atiesh

You can play retail just as if it were classic if you don’t use any of the features that aren’t in classic.

Actually, no, you couldn’t, and it’s not based on features. For example, if we were going to try and do that, most of the abilities would not be usable, since they are not in Classic.

@Adlez-atiesh

pretty much “any” system can be considered “optional”.

It’s true. Pretty well every current system can be considered optional.

For example, queueing for PvP from your PvP Tab - we don’t need to use that, there are battlemasters in the world for us to use. However, they don’t offer the RBG, right? The thing that we get bonus honor and arena points for? Although, I don’t see people complaining about that…

[Zaalg-ashkandi]

The group forming aspect of RDF is 100% optional. So what is your argument? That it’s better people are forced into playing one way rather than having another option?

If people like forming groups manually, keep doing it. So, again, what is the argument against this? That it’s better to group with players only because they have no other choice? Wouldn’t it be better to group with like-minded players with the same values and goals as you (given the assertion that manually group forming is a social fabric of the game).

The point is you can look at ANYTHING in the game and say ‘people feel compelled to use that system’. Therefore it’s a poor argument because it’s not directed at any one system. It’s just a blanket statement.

And after months of this RDF debate there hasn’t been anything said specifically about RDF about why it’s bad. Trolls use strawman and hyperbole arguments. And that’s it.

[Adlez-atiesh]

I’m not arguing one way or the other on the inclusion of RDF. Just that it being optional is not a valid argument for its inclusion in the game. Either RDF is good for the game or it isn’t good for the game. There are arguments for both sides. Personally I don’t care. I’ve been playing since 2004 and play classic primarily for nostalgia and because I like Azeroth prior to Cata and, no, I won’t be playing classic Cata if such an abomination were ever to be released

I’m just not on board with people, and there are a lot, that say “Oh, if you don’t like a system just don’t use it.” To me that is a sign they don’t really have or are able to articulate and argument for why the system is good for the game or contrarily are unable to refute an argument for why a system is bad for the game.

[Kurathis-pagle]

@Adlez-atiesh

To me that is a sign they don’t really have or are able to articulate and argument for why the system is good for the game or contrarily are unable to refute an argument for why a system is bad for the game.

It IS a valid argument. As proven above.

[Adlez-atiesh]

Proven, really Well, I read and respond on the forums for entertainment and this has been very entertaining. But now I’m going to get back to leveling my next classic character. Have a good day.

[Kurathis-pagle]

@Adlez-atiesh

But now I’m going to get back to leveling my next classic character.

Aww, when you get proven wrong, you leave? Stay classy.

[Adlez-atiesh]

Thank you I will, and you keep trolling if that is what does it for you

[Kurathis-pagle]

@Adlez-atiesh

and you keep trolling if that is what does it for you

…says the troll?

[Zaalg-ashkandi]

You can keep saying it, but in fact the group forming facet of the tool is indeed optional.

As far as the pros of No-rdf…please indulge me. The social aspect? TBCC and now Wrath have disproven that. There’s a lot of lessons to learn from Classic, but one of the most obvious is that RDF didn’t destroy the community, didn’t turn people toxic or encourage gatekeeking. All that exists right now without RDF. I’d say the worst it’s ever been.

So what other reasons are there? Server identity? There is no accountability. No one talks. No one communicates. Half the servers are bots anyway. And also, Blizz can say all they want about server identity…and then turn the only open world server pvp and turned it into a cross-realm bg. Where’s the outrage there? Where’s the consistency there?

Without RDF the world is more alive!! Please. At max level 2 people fly afk to a dungeon and summon the rest. It doesn’t populate the world. And for leveling…virtually no one does low level dungeons. It’s just dead, like we knew it would be.

I could go on, but it doesn’t matter. Blizz made up their mind and it’s not coming back.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Adlez-atiesh

Now I’m pretty neutral on RDF/no-RDF but this argument is bogus. I mean people use the same argument for everything. “It is optional, if you don’t want to use it don’t.” By this logic we should all be playing retail and just not using those features we don’t like. I mean you don’t have to fly, no need for Raid Finder, don’t like borrowed power? Don’t use those weapons/armor, and so on.

Heck you’ve convinced me, why even bother putting out classic releases. We can just all play retail and just not use the features we disagree with/don’t like.

Or maybe people need to actually learn how to distinguish between an actual game play feature like flying and something that is literally just a tool to access existing content like RDF but does not actually change gameplay.

[Adlez-atiesh]

Since you seem to be asking a reasonable question I’ll give you my answer.

First, once again, I don’t personally care if RDF is in the game or not.

Pros:

1. Makes it easier to find groups. Especially for low level dungeons once most of the population has leveled and is primarily raiding.
2. With some of the very sparsely populated servers it would only make sense if it was also cross server.

Cons:

1. With RDF there is, in my limited experience, less social interaction.
2. Especially if it is cross server there are few, if any, repercussions for poor behavior. In the original Vanilla I remember a few people that were blacklisted and ended up re-rolling on different servers to get away from their reputation.

I’m sure there are more on both sides but those are the ones that come to mind for me.

Playing the game is optional. I’m not sure how being optional is relevant. The systems included in any game shape, and constrain, how the game is played and even the types of players the game attracts.

[Zaalg-ashkandi]

@Adlez-atiesh

Cons:

1. With RDF there is, in my limited experience, less social interaction.

With RDF you run far more dungeons and meet far more players. How is that less social interaction.
And it encourages and incentivizes to invite and group up with players on your server and then fill out a group with RDF. That’s the power of the convenience and accessibility. Without it it’s really not worth the time and effort for most people. So yeah, you’ll see less full 5-man server specific groups, infinitely more 2-4 server groups.

2. Especially if it is cross server there are few, if any, repercussions for poor behavior. In the original Vanilla I remember a few people that were blacklisted and ended up re-rolling on different servers to get away from their reputation.

This isn’t Vanilla anymore; it’s Wrath. So that doesn’t really have any relevance. Also, Blizz was nice enough to add name changes so…reputation means nothing. You can change your identity at the drop of a hat. And RDF comes with pre-built measures against abusing the system. The vote kick has a lot of restrictions, for example. The current setup has no such measures against toxic behavior.

Then just throw in human nature. When players are easily able to get into dungeon groups, they will naturally be calmer, more relaxed, more chill. Unlike spending hours spamming the LFG and the frustrating process of trying to swim through a sea of gatekeeping and other hurdles just to access a freaking dungeon. Less stress generally means people behave better.

Another thing to keep in mind is you can run soooo many more dungeons with RDF a bad run isn’t really that big a deal. You just hop back in and try again. Didn’t get that drop? Oh well, just do it again. And again and again. Everything about the dungeon experience is just better. It lets players concentrate on fun and not worry about all the negatives.

…And trying to format anything on a phone is a headache.

[Adlez-atiesh]

@Zaalg-ashkandi

With RDF you run far more dungeons and meet far more players. How is that less social interaction.

The few times I’ve used RDF in the past there is almost no conversation, no interaction, and people often behave badly. I still do occasional dungeon runs with my guild and if we need to fill a spot or two LFG seems to work just fine.

Our take on fun is different, and that is ok. For me fewer casual dungeon/raid runs with friends is much preferable, and more fun, than lots of raid/dungeon runs with strangers who, most of the time, just want to rush through the dungeon/raid without any social interaction.

I think part of it may be a generational thing. I play to escape for a bit and, this go around, I play very casually. I mean I did all of the dungeons/raids the first time around and am in no hurry to “get to the end”.

Oh, and your post formatting is fine.

P.S. Now we use Discord for dungeons and raids and I have to admit that occasionally I get more social interaction than I need and occasionally use the mute button