No argument but the same thing was true about M+ until Season 4 of DF.
All that matters each Season is how far you can get in one or all of the pillars not your gear score or at least that’s how I look at things.
You can’t upgrade the key though if you do careful pulls and CC, while I was able to do a T8 delve at ilvl 530 by following mechanics and using roots and such.
The best gear has always come from relatively difficult content, for 20 years now of this game. While Molten Core doesn’t exactly hold up, even +16s in season 1-3 of Dragonflight required some measure of gear and skill that wasn’t needed for delves. I’ve leveled a rogue and a warrior the past two weeks, and been able to go into T8s and T9s immediately upon hitting 80. Because the amount of damage that is unavoidable is very low and I get the benefits of my other characters having run delves giving a near-max level Brann to do most of the work. This is with characters wearing leveling blues and greens, some slots not even 500 yet.
While that might be true to some extent, delves aren’t even comparable to mythic+ because the mythic+ levels they may have compared to no longer even exist.
I’m absolutely down to see improved solo content / 5 man content that offers higher ilvl, but untimed m+ or “higher scaling delves” are not it.
1 Like
And we’ve seen that Blizz can make difficult solo/small group content for years as well. Horrific Visions is probably the closest thing to Delves since it was class agnostic unlike the Mage Tower.
I guess I don’t see the problem in allowing all players to have a path to max iLevel each Season no matter the pillar they prefer and whether they want to play solo or in a group if it keeps them happy and subbed.
4 Likes
Not a good comparison. You aren’t exactly encouraged to plan pulls in M0 or delves because you can generally just pull and AoE in them anyway, the only question being just how many mobs you’re capable of pulling and AoEing.
What the OP is talking about is more akin to, say, the old Burning Crusade heroic dungeons, where practically every single pack had CC assignments, interrupts and/or target priority. Personally, I don’t think it should go quite that far, as that design heavily encouraged people to bring specific classes to specific dungeons (can’t CC demons? Don’t want you) as well as became a bit of a chore having to plan out every single pull.
But I do think getting closer to that gameplay style would be an improvement over the current GOGOGO way
I don’t have a problem with the path existing, if the content warrants it. As of now the content does not, and simply turning up the scaling does not turn it into such content.
They aren’t comparable and never will even with tuning changes because they can be done solo or in sub 5 player groups.
1 Like
We haven’t seen that. Zekvir hardmode was pretty much a mess depending on class and spec, as the hardest delve content, and they absolutely massacred him rather than trying to balance it. Horrific visions were also extremely easy, especially once you had all/most of the upgrades.
That’s precisely what folks are saying.
1 Like
You mean the same thing said about M+ from Raiders? Blizz opened this pandora’s box with the creation of M+ and made it worse with Delves.
In fact these issues date back to Cata when Blizz basically killed 25 man Raiding by making 10 mans drop the same rewards and we all survived.
Mythic plus predates loot upgrades, and while we can have a discussion about that, Mythic plus and Mythic raid are still high-end group content with reasonable failure states. Delves are not.
The thing is we’ve also got VASTLY improved class toolkits now compared to back then. Tanks are designed to deal damage / hold threat on more than 1 mob at a time, and we have the tools to CC during combat instead of just beforehand.
Getting back to “the good old days” as some might say isn’t just a case of content design, it also means changing class design.
3 Likes
What does that have to do with anything?
But the argument from Raiders has always been that M+ can be done any time of the day or night and is puggable with little to no organization.
It’s funny how so many Delve threads echo the old M+ vs Raid discussions and now we’re at a point where M+ and Raiding are closer than ever in terms of difficulty and rewards.
That’s why I feel it’s only a matter of time until Delves get the same treatment if only to appease a vocal sub set of the player base to keep them subbed.
2 Likes
That is literally how m+ is ran.
3 Likes
Despite their differences m+ and raids still require the two factors initially outlined. Delves with their current design require neither.
At the very least, delve mechanics would need a complete overhaul and some focus on optimising damage would need to be introduced. That’s why I said it would be difficult for blizzard to do, but not impossible.
3 Likes
That has been a very important part of WoW since the Vanilla MMO came out. That being said there seems to be a trend more toward solo content.
There will, of course, be people giving arguments on both sides but it would be possible to allow high level gear for people who want to do higher level solo content or do higher level “follower” content as we see with Follower Dungeons and Story Mode Raids.
this.
I’m pretty convinced that people who clamor for “slow and steady” think m+ is just a mindless zergfest.
they couldn’t be more wrong.
7 Likes
Since Delves already offer rewards equivalent to Raiding and M+ without these “factors” I’d say Blizz can do anything they want.
Blizz knows iLevel isn’t the goal each Season even though that may be news to most players.
2 Likes
I mean it’d be possible to do anything, it’s a game after all.
But if you’re talking about the phenomenon of AI replacing players in group content, no. That’s still solo content, the onus for success is placed entirely on you the player because the AI has to succeed in its role for the content to be possible at all.
M+ is the devil though, having that timer over your head?
Anxiety inducing, and crippling social interactions as well. Why can’t everything just hand me loot for just showing up?
/s
1 Like