Totally agree. There’s literally decades worth of pen and paper campaigns (D&D and others) to take inspiration from when crafting dungeons, but it’s been slept on because those don’t translate well to AoE loot hallways (heroics) or linear timed obstacle courses (M+).
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And yet, people played all the long dungeons in Classic. Many times over and over in fact. This forum is nothing but an echo chamber anymore.
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You’re arguing with 3-4 of the most notorious M+ defenders on these forums. They will never ever understand your argument and where you’re coming from. They just don’t understand one bit.
These forums are basically inhabited by what is left of the remaining player base of WoW. Which is competitive players that love the sweaty design of the end game. They’re the feedback that Blizzard listens to and gauges their player metrics from now.
I personally think just based on my readings outside this forum and personal experiences with a lot of my old guildmates. A lot of players left the game because of M+ dungeons. They just couldn’t stand being pushed into these high stress dungeons. The game absolutely funnels you towards M+.
I’ve been playing WoW since beta and I can’t think of a single system that has brought more toxicity and alienated more players away from the game than M+.
A lot of M+ defenders don’t realize that many of WoW’s core player base were average skilled gamers that loved WoW because it was casual. I can’t tell you how many players just loved farming easy dungeons for badges and random bgs for gear. They really didn’t care about it being easy, because they were looking for laid back experiences.
Now, even normal dungeons are infected with this GO GO GO mentality.
Look how the developers are starting to panic now with DF by adding in and revisiting non-competitive content and systems. Blizzard is losing it’s previous core player base because they have been catering way too much to competitive player types the last 3 expansions.
I put a lot of the blame on Ion and the Diable 3 developers that were brought onto the team at the end of WoD. These people basically turned the game into a seasonal lobby game similar to a lot of the looter shooters that are available.
I don’t think WoW can be saved from the current design mistakes. If you’re looking for a fun MMO that plays more like a RPG. I would suggest Lord of the Rings Online, Elder Scrolls Online, FF14 or Guild Wars 2. All those games have active and friendly player bases and the games are very fun and immersive.
Might be cool to have a harder non timed mode. Maybe scale them up to an 18-20 difficulty.
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I really don’t have patience to deal with you repeating that point that only shows you don’t really get the point i’m trying to get across, so i’l just skip those and just simply ask you this. You don’t think Mythic Raiding is easy because it’s untimed, then why are you even attempting to make this argument at all then?
Define “Hard stop”, because if it’s just people trying for hours and then just trying again for another day, that’s not exactly a hard stop.
What you find Easy, isn’t objectively easy for everybody across the board. End of story.
… Why you’re repeating the same agrument you just made that i already refuted? 
I didn’t. Please stop putting words into my mouth mate.
…Have you not been reading my suggestions? I’m open to having them be challenging in some capacity, whether it’s combat related or otherwise. I don’t know why you keep on insisting that i want them to be easy when i’ve said multiple times the opposite. Please for the love of jerry, stop being disingenuous. It’s really not that hard to understand that.
Why you do have a problem with Untimed being at the same level as Mythic+ here? You’re acting like this is a threat to your mode here, given how many times you want to lower it. 
How do you know that? Are you suggesting those things must be static? Because that’s the only way to explain why you’re saying that.
You would be wrong. What you find easier, isn’t objectively easier. Let’s not be dishonest here.
Mate, you’re a raider. At heroic even. You should know better that what you’re saying isn’t remotely true since you have experience with raiding yourself. It wouldn’t matter if you have more time to deal with things. A Hard mob is still a hard mob and it would be hard. Regardless if you subjectively find it easy.
What am i describing is different from M+ and more on the level of pre M+ but with the difficulty of M+. Why do you keep on confusing this?
I still have that opinion, regardless if you think so or not.
I think your problem here is you assumed my arguments either extreme positions of this topic like either it’s going to be ‘super duper hard, and everybody will be frustrated, hard stopped, people gonna get maaaad…’ all that jazz, or ’ it will be super duper easy, it will be easier’ and not looking at this with nuance.
M+ didn’t seem to kill that, i don’t see how untimed will.
No, arguing this point where you have raid experience is disingenious mate.
That is literally not true. 
As somebody who had to wait for their RTX 3070, i can tell you, it was not easy trying to find one that isn’t like massively scraped to crap here. Not to mention some of them have the green lines issue, which happened to be the first one i got. The second one, colorful battle ax, was my luckiest catch.
Meanwhile i’m sitting here with my 2 dead drives because if a PSU fried them and i need 2k -4k to repair them so i can move my stuff out into a newer drive. Given my current state of things with my job and my house, that’s $40 a week i get to keep for myself. $160 a month. That’s 25 months, 2 years to get that sort of money to just fix these things at max.
You don’t need timers to have progressive difficulty. I mean Leveling prior to scaling and atfer, has the capacity to do just about that.
You seem to think making a lot of changes is bad.
…Though implication. It’s an example i’ve used.
And you’re just repeating agruments i’ve already refuted so… 
What difference does it make? One’s easy and the other’s easy? Whoa, brilliant revelation there… /s 
Moving on from this frivolous point here.
When you say “Only if their done well” and you have agruments that are saying “as long there’s less rewards, it will match up”, and so on, you pretty much made it ovbious that it’s not something you will ever play given how you disagree with me and want your own version of it because “It’s not easier”, which…
…rich coming from you claiming i’m reading your mind, because that’s exactly what you’ve been doing with you saying about me; assuming you can read my mind, instead of reading my comments and what it said.
First off, that meme was simply talking about you overusing (as well misusing) the word “easier”. If you’re going to chastise me on blatant misunderstanding, it would help if you understand what i was going for there considering i had easier bolded out to make it easier to understand.
You keep on using the word “easier”, i don’t think that word means what you think it means.
Second, you’re a raider. You absolutely know that simply having more time doesn’t mean it’s automatically easier. I don’t know why you’re lying to me about that when you should know better here, as well lying about me lying. And it’s not like i don’t have any experience in raiding. I’ve been a flex/normal raider once back in MoP and WoD and i know for a fact that having all the time in the world doesn’t mean jack dannels if you’re having trouble on one or two things. Whether it be mobs, boss or mechanics.
I know for an objective fact, what i find easy to me, isn’t easy for anybody. And vice versa.
At this point, your arguments make it impossible to have a civil and nuanced discussion about this since you’ve resorted to lying here, even as a raider you should know better, so i bid you good day, because by your own design, we have nothing else to discuss here. 
Da. That makes sense now.
Actually no, because she doesn’t seem to have any M+ on her profile in WoW. Just raiding…
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm… 
Tbh, i did have a bit of fun with them back in Legion, but honestly, i would love a challeging untimed dungeon to go though, get some little nice rewards, exploration, maybe chit chat a bit for a change of pace in a RETAIL setting… 
No kidding. It’s actually contributed to why i slowly stopped doing dungeons unless i really want to.
“Oh do this skip here”
“Oh pull big”
“Massive pulls”
“Healer DPS!”
“Hunter pull for us”
“FASTER FASTER, FASTER”
etc etc… etc… etc… ALL things that aren’t even remotely needed in a normal leveling dungeon! Like… why can’t we just play it normally? What, is there is a pot of gold at the end of the dungeon and if play it normally, it’s gone? 
If so, can i have some so i can LEAVE THIS PLACE?! 
Well never say never. WoW do exist in more then 4 forms. 
Unless it’s directed and animated by Ralph Bakshi, i’l pass.
Unless it has a single-player mode and all my skyrim special edition mods work with it, i’l pass too.
Been there, not interested.
I already have that, it’s a fun enough action MMO that is definitionally worth the $40 price tag when i first got it back in 2014. But honestly, it’s not the same as WoW in terms of how it grabs me. I mean i like it, but i don’t know, something for me isn’t clicking just like how WoW did for me back in 2011.
I’m not really interested in what people did the first time in a game that was brand new.
You’re not wrong. I, too, was there to crawl through BRD. And I complained the entire time that it was too long and I didn’t want to have to do it. Luckily for me, things mostly changed.
But the game is still a MASSIVE* time sink.
So while you cherry-pick the fact that “it was popular in Vanilla”, you dismiss the larger reality that, after a short time, ALL THOSE PEOPLE LEFT.
That’s not exactly a ringing endorsement. And before you devolve into the obvious, basic tropes of why, don’t head down that road before you admit the fact that every time they introduce a “mega dungeon”, it’s barely played at all … until it’s then broken up into smaller pieces.
People in their 30-40s with a family, etc certainly WANT to sit down for 3-6 hours and just dungeon crawl, that just isn’t the reality that it was in their 20s. Mega-dungeons are poison-- but break them up into pieces, and they’re fine. Why can’t you agree to that? Why can’t you run part1, then part2? Why is it only fun if you are locked into running both parts at the same time??
Brocknor, this argument applies to every single video game ever made throughout the history. There’s always going to be people in theirs 30’s - 40’s with a family, it’s not a new thing. And just because they exist, doesn’t mean we can’t have things that take time and effort. I mean that didn’t stop Blizzard back then making Blackrock Depths.
You’re not locked into it.
And because of saves, etc every other game can be done in short blocks as time allows. MMOs are, very specifically, not like that.
MMOs inherently require orders of magnitude more time than every other game because you can’t just STOP.
This fact should have been more obvious to you.
Cannot be done without additional skill or equipment.
The fact that you don’t understand the difference between something being easy and one thing being easier than another is concerning. Look up the definition of the two words.
You haven’t refuted anything, you’ve just repeated your incorrect idea.
Nothing you’ve suggested is challenging though. All your ideas would be learned in the first level of the dungeon. At +2 your progressive difficulty stops.
Easy and easier is not the same thing. This is elementary school level vocabulary that you’re either deliberately ignoring or legit fail to understand.
I have no problem with it at all as long as the difficulty is equivalent
Everything you described is a static change, unless these dungeons are going to be roguelikes where all the flavor stuff is different every time.
Easier is pretty objective if you’re comparisons are relevant.
Addition is easier than multiplication.
High school physics is easier than phd level physics
Even if you consider all 4 of the above easy or hard, the formers are objectively easier than the latters.
In TBC heroic slabs you have packs that are easy with 3 hard ccs and difficult with none. Having more time allows the hard CC strat while not having that time doesn’t. It’s been easier to deal with mobs with more time for the entirety of wow’s life. That’s literally why bosses have enrage timers. It is a fact and is not dependent on anyone’s idea of what’s easy
You haven’t described anything equal in difficulty.
M+ still allows for power increases if you don’t time. The hard stop isn’t until levels most people never even get to.
If you have unlimited time to wait for one, you’ll find the one you want. You want one soon so it’s harder. Because you’re introducing a time constraint, it’s more difficult. Your own example proves you wrong.
You don’t need them, they’re just the easiest way. Least effort for maximum return.
Not at all. But I understand that it’s also unlikely Blizz will bother with that when they have a very simple way to do it via timers. If the gave us 8 times and 8 untimed dungeons that were built completely differently that’d be cool.
Having said multiple times that I think it’s a good idea provided the rewards are appropriate based on the difficulty, I’m not sure why you keep claiming I’d never do it. It really not unreasonable to ask that game modes have comparable reward structures.
I understand that you don’t understand the difference between something being easy and one thing being easier than another. You’ve made it quite clear.
It makes pretty much everything easier. It’s literally the reason boss encounters (the part of raids that count) have enrage timers. Because it’d be easier to be able to stack tanks/heals and whittle down the boss. How are you still trying to make this argument?
Then you should understand that trash in raids is filler, and boss enrages prevent using unlimited time to cheese the fight. Obviously extra time doesn’t mean you don’t need to do mechanics, but it does mean you have more time to practice them and more time to make up for mistakes.
At no point have I ever stated that something is objectively easy.
I’ve said nothing untrue, but you’re still trying to sell this no timer in mythic raid story when there is a timer for the bosses. That’s pretty clearly untrue.
If you want a dungeon crawler game. Play Diablo III that’s pretty much the entire endgame system there.
I said every single video game ever made in history.
Every. 
Single. Video game.
Including the days of Atari and NES where Save games are unicorn levels of rare. Still didn’t stop them making games that some of them have to be completed in one sitting or a task that required a long time to complete.
…People leave and come back to finish raids in the same week to finish raids or progress more in it. To some capacity, it does save your progress, but only temporarily, depending if you want to continue or not.
…You can just stop. Unless you’re focused on the meta, the average player isn’t going to worry intensely about not stopping.
Again, this sort of idea existed since ever and it hasn’t stopped all the MMO makers from the late 90’s to early 2000’s putting in stuff like raids and such because there’s people who are 30 to 40 who has families.
What is this “obvious fact” you speak of? What’s obvious to me is that people are acting like that this sort of thing is with 30’s and 40’s people with families are new, when it’s always been like that, and yet never have the same argument been used for stuff of decade(s) ago. What about the people who are in the 30’s and 40’s back in like the 80’s? the 90’s? The 2000’s?.. Why were cherry picking only late 2010’s and 2020’s here?
Also, are we going to assume only 30’s to 40’s people with their family has poor time management that they can’t find the time to enjoy themselves while balancing their family needs and such?
I’m so tired of this idea that WoW is dominated by a certain age group. People of all ages played WoW since the beginning.
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Because demographics don’t exist. Bell curves don’t exist.
Except for the fact they disprove people who hyper-focus on minutia because they can’t admit their arguments are weak.
Can you provide some kind sources that back up your claims then?
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Age 33 here, gainfully employed and all that noise. I’d rather dungeons be something I do when I run across a nice chunk of spare time than something crammed into a lunch break. Think less throwaway sitcom and more feature length cinematic masterpiece.
Because that greatly limits the possibilities for the layout and flow of the dungeon. When broken up into pieces it can only really ever be linear or almost linear, which is boring and not very dungeon like.
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Dunno about the others, but I wanted them to be 10 man versions that you could queue for.