Yeah, it did. It was an underperforming spec. Even other people are saying it wasnt easy then. How about this, without touching MotFW, which there was only one buff to DW through MotFW in WoD and not the millions that you claim, balance the 2 weapons. Increase obliterate damage for one and it impacts the other? This goes for any ability outside of MotFW. Increase in Frost Strike damage? Also a buff to 2h since 2h still used the ability.
DW just attacked faster, the speed in the spec came from rune regen, in wrath rune regen was a constant, in cata it was impacted by haste but also had abilities that filled in downtime if used properly.
Yeah, it can be buffed, that is not the same as balanced, there is a difference. They can buff obliterate damage by 400% for 2h, they can do that by bringing back MotFW, but again that causes problems in both PvP and PvE.
And again, if there is a bad suggestion im going to call it out, you thinking that is the same as saying something cant happen is a you problem, not mine.
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I donât want it balanced next to DW though. Iâve stated that constantly. I honestly believe a lot of people donât want that either. Iâm fully willing to once again admit that even with all these changes taken to there extremes, DW will most likely have better parses than 2h. Even with a higher 2h Obliterate equation. But thatâs not making DW worse at the end of the day.
If 2h starts to become a problem, tweak that side of the Obliterate equation without touching DW. If Obliteration is causing a problem, tweak the numbers to have it not be as much of a problem. If a new version of GA with 2h leaning is causing a problem, tweak it so itâs as strong of a 2h leaning. None of these things is nerfing DW in an as extreme way as you suggest. DW might get weaker if things like Obliteration and a new GA end up parsing better, but they will always be able to fall on the fact that they have higher procs, more runes, godly Breathe synergies, and build around it via whatever stats sim best. Youâve been saying that youâre simply calling out bad suggestion so let me ask, what about them is bad? How are my suggestion setting DW back when they still have 2 runes, a talent tree with overall better synergy, and having the entire spec built around it for 4-5 years? And how are they worse than simply nerfing DW, setting the entire spec back.
Who said these things were nerfing DW? I seriously donât know where you are getting these things from.
You have said âthe only way to have 2h in line with DW is to nerf DWâ. These are changes that donât make them equal but bring them closer without nerfing DW. Thatâs why I mention it. You donât have to nerf DW to be in line with 2h. Thatâs the point
What about my suggestions is bad? You still havenât answered.
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Yes you do since it addresses what the differences are. Just increasing crit chance and increasing obliterate damage for 2h wouldnât do anything. Even if you made 2h have 40 procs itâs still half of the amount of procs that DW gets, and the increased obliterate damage would have to be insane, just like with MotFW just to bring them in line that creates problems in other aspects of the game or did you not pay attention to all the complaints in WoD in PvP?
But DW was still better than 2h in PVP. 2h required all the stars to perfectly in line to Oblit a clothie in half. 2h was almost entirely built around the idea of stacking multihit, praying your big Obliterate hit them 2 or 3 times. The stats of now are not the stats of WoD. DW was still way more consistent even with something as ridiculous as multihit was. If the Obliterates start to become an issue, decrease the 2h specific equation. If 2h still arenât getting enough KM, further increase the probability of each chance. You could increase it to 100% and bring it as in line as possible if itâs really that awful and only buff up the Obliterate numbers by a slight amount instead of a massive amount. Thatâs not âdoing nothingâ. Will they have the same parse in every aspect? No. But nobody expects that. DW will still be better. These things simply close the gap, do they not?
So which is it? Was 2h better or not because now Iâm hearing different things from the people on the same side. One says 2h was always better, then another says the stars had to align. Looks like the 2h side, since people want to continuously divide frost, canât even agree with each other.
You also canât just increase the proc chance of km for 2h, the same variables are used by both sets. Just like obliterate uses the same attack power % for both resulting in the same damage output roughly so itâs easier to balance.
How do you know? Do you have the actual formula in front of you? Post the formula and show us why it cant be changed because all we have is you saying it cant be done. So show us this formula that can not be altered in anyway.
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In classical rhetoric and logic, begging the question is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argumentâs premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it. It is a type of circular reasoning: an argument that requires that the desired conclusion be true.
Generic Example: Paranormal activity is real because I have experienced what can only be described as paranormal activity.
Example Commonly Used on this Forum: DW is the correct/only way Frost should be played because I have experienced Frost playing better using DW.
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Seconding this post. My forum time has been so much better after putting the forum troll on ignore.
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Yea i have placed them on ignore tired of dealing with it.
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With things being ap based, wouldnt this do the same for dw as well though?
I like the idea a lot. I hate breath. I want it gone.
The km proc and 2 runes vs one is the main issue at balance. (And breath existing)
I wish breath would be baseline with its functionality changed.
In theory with the way itâs written, itâs possible to shift number independent of 2h and DW. So you can take the 2h side of the equation, buff it, and allow for it to be more Obliterate specialized. A general buff to Obliteration would be beneficially for DW yes but considering whatâs been added, Blizz definitely wants to push Breathe. Hystera, Revendreath, Hypothermic all stacked is giving upwards of 70 sec breathe timers. Glacial Advance has had a way to apply Razorice, just change it to have better synergy with 2h, and give it a rime application. No need to fuss over âoh god we let people have 2 enchants on there 2hs nowâ.
Itâs not perfect or a complete equalization but itâll do something.
It wasnât. The only reason people are being so adamant with you is because of your constant complete shutting down of conversation, your shifting of goal posts, and dogmatic way which you cling to the absolute of your position. The only time I can remember 2h being better than DW was real early WoD, and that was again because Multistrike was stupid. Once people got geared properly, DW simmed better. Itâs not hard to find videos at the time saying so.
What reason is there to believe you canât? Why couldnât you apply a flat buff increasing autoâs of 2h crit chance by x percentage? They did something similar with MotFW back in the day despite Obliterate and Frost Strike running off the same variables. You said in the previous thread it can happen, but âit wouldnât do anythingâ now youâre saying âyou canât do it it doesnât work like thatâ. 2H Obliterate - complete the dream Blizz! - #204 by Kelliste-antonidas
Now Iâm hearing different things. One says you can but it wouldnât help, then another says you canât. Which is it? Looks like the nerf DW side, since people only think Frost has to get weaker just to make 2h stronger, canât even line up their own previous statements.
Yes, Obliterate is using the same attack power % to roughly make 2hâs and DWâs damage equal. But you havenât answered the actual question. What reason is there to believe you canât tweak the 2h equation independently? The code can obviously detect what type of weapon your using, calculate the power it gives you, and equate that power, despite DW and 2h being different modular variables. What says you canât take that same code, and tweak on aspect of it in the situation it detects a 2h and equates the damage off it.
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In fact to see how much ânothingâ a flat increase to crit chance for 2h autoâs would do lets take the math from the linked post and do some tests.
12 minutes 80 KM procs for DW, 20 for 2h. 12 minutes = 720 seconds. A chance/auto per second of 1.3 equates to roughly 554 chances meaning each auto with rounding has about 16% chance to proc killing machine.
Now lets apply a flat buff to a 2hâs auto crit chance to make it 100%. Our chance output is 200 compared to 554, due to having a chance every 3.6 seconds. However, with it being all of our autoâs are now criting, we have a whopping 200 km procs to 80. This is the absolute extreme of course so letâs drop the buff down to somewhere more reasonable.
Lets change the 2h flat chance to 40 percent of all our autos crit. Taking the same math that you listed, with no haste, of 1.3 secs and 3.6 secs per change meaning DW gets 554 chances and 2h gets 200 chances, the flat 40/60 roll weâve given 2h is now equating to number equal! 80 KM to 80 KM in the 12 minutes. Now drop that down a bit more to compensate for the higher Obliterate damage, say around 30/70 roll. We now have 60 km for 2h and 80 for DW.
Unless you can prove itâs impossible for such a buff to exist, despite MotFW working a similar way prior with just flat damage instead of flat crit chance, the argument of âit wouldnât do anythingâ is moot.
If you donât want the spec split, just say so and move on. This whole âyou need to nerf DWâ or âflat chance wouldnât helpâ then goalpost shifting to âyou canât even do thatâ is disingenuous at best and active willful ignorance at worst.
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Look, Iâve said it before, please stop doing this. You keep acting like everyone who likes 2H frost is the same person, or some kind of club that meets every Tuesday. Theyâre not. Everyone responding here is their own person with their own thoughts and no organization between then. If youâre going to bother responding please stop doing this, itâs one of the (but not the only) reasons people get so irate with you.
EDIT: also calling it âthe 2h sideâ really doesnât make it sound like youâre fine with 2h like youâve been claiming.
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Yet most hold the same ideas. There is also nothing else to call them⌠these people have expressed their hate or strong dislike for DW while saying 2h is the greatest thing ever, so what do you want to call them?
Iâd like you to not call them anything and respond to people on an individual basis like a normal, rational human.
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Thats quite a bit of hyperbole⌠You really should try to not get so worked up about people who prefer 2H Frost.
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