In classical rhetoric and logic, begging the question is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argument’s premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it. It is a type of circular reasoning: an argument that requires that the desired conclusion be true.
Generic Example: Paranormal activity is real because I have experienced what can only be described as paranormal activity.
Example Commonly Used on this Forum: DW is the correct/only way Frost should be played because I have experienced Frost playing better using DW.
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Seconding this post. My forum time has been so much better after putting the forum troll on ignore.
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Yea i have placed them on ignore tired of dealing with it.
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With things being ap based, wouldnt this do the same for dw as well though?
I like the idea a lot. I hate breath. I want it gone.
The km proc and 2 runes vs one is the main issue at balance. (And breath existing)
I wish breath would be baseline with its functionality changed.
In theory with the way it’s written, it’s possible to shift number independent of 2h and DW. So you can take the 2h side of the equation, buff it, and allow for it to be more Obliterate specialized. A general buff to Obliteration would be beneficially for DW yes but considering what’s been added, Blizz definitely wants to push Breathe. Hystera, Revendreath, Hypothermic all stacked is giving upwards of 70 sec breathe timers. Glacial Advance has had a way to apply Razorice, just change it to have better synergy with 2h, and give it a rime application. No need to fuss over “oh god we let people have 2 enchants on there 2hs now”.
It’s not perfect or a complete equalization but it’ll do something.
It wasn’t. The only reason people are being so adamant with you is because of your constant complete shutting down of conversation, your shifting of goal posts, and dogmatic way which you cling to the absolute of your position. The only time I can remember 2h being better than DW was real early WoD, and that was again because Multistrike was stupid. Once people got geared properly, DW simmed better. It’s not hard to find videos at the time saying so.
What reason is there to believe you can’t? Why couldn’t you apply a flat buff increasing auto’s of 2h crit chance by x percentage? They did something similar with MotFW back in the day despite Obliterate and Frost Strike running off the same variables. You said in the previous thread it can happen, but “it wouldn’t do anything” now you’re saying “you can’t do it it doesn’t work like that”. 2H Obliterate - complete the dream Blizz! - #204 by Kelliste-antonidas
Now I’m hearing different things. One says you can but it wouldn’t help, then another says you can’t. Which is it? Looks like the nerf DW side, since people only think Frost has to get weaker just to make 2h stronger, can’t even line up their own previous statements.
Yes, Obliterate is using the same attack power % to roughly make 2h’s and DW’s damage equal. But you haven’t answered the actual question. What reason is there to believe you can’t tweak the 2h equation independently? The code can obviously detect what type of weapon your using, calculate the power it gives you, and equate that power, despite DW and 2h being different modular variables. What says you can’t take that same code, and tweak on aspect of it in the situation it detects a 2h and equates the damage off it.
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In fact to see how much “nothing” a flat increase to crit chance for 2h auto’s would do lets take the math from the linked post and do some tests.
12 minutes 80 KM procs for DW, 20 for 2h. 12 minutes = 720 seconds. A chance/auto per second of 1.3 equates to roughly 554 chances meaning each auto with rounding has about 16% chance to proc killing machine.
Now lets apply a flat buff to a 2h’s auto crit chance to make it 100%. Our chance output is 200 compared to 554, due to having a chance every 3.6 seconds. However, with it being all of our auto’s are now criting, we have a whopping 200 km procs to 80. This is the absolute extreme of course so let’s drop the buff down to somewhere more reasonable.
Lets change the 2h flat chance to 40 percent of all our autos crit. Taking the same math that you listed, with no haste, of 1.3 secs and 3.6 secs per change meaning DW gets 554 chances and 2h gets 200 chances, the flat 40/60 roll we’ve given 2h is now equating to number equal! 80 KM to 80 KM in the 12 minutes. Now drop that down a bit more to compensate for the higher Obliterate damage, say around 30/70 roll. We now have 60 km for 2h and 80 for DW.
Unless you can prove it’s impossible for such a buff to exist, despite MotFW working a similar way prior with just flat damage instead of flat crit chance, the argument of “it wouldn’t do anything” is moot.
If you don’t want the spec split, just say so and move on. This whole “you need to nerf DW” or “flat chance wouldn’t help” then goalpost shifting to “you can’t even do that” is disingenuous at best and active willful ignorance at worst.
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Look, I’ve said it before, please stop doing this. You keep acting like everyone who likes 2H frost is the same person, or some kind of club that meets every Tuesday. They’re not. Everyone responding here is their own person with their own thoughts and no organization between then. If you’re going to bother responding please stop doing this, it’s one of the (but not the only) reasons people get so irate with you.
EDIT: also calling it “the 2h side” really doesn’t make it sound like you’re fine with 2h like you’ve been claiming.
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Yet most hold the same ideas. There is also nothing else to call them… these people have expressed their hate or strong dislike for DW while saying 2h is the greatest thing ever, so what do you want to call them?
I’d like you to not call them anything and respond to people on an individual basis like a normal, rational human.
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Thats quite a bit of hyperbole… You really should try to not get so worked up about people who prefer 2H Frost.
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Where have I expressed my hate for DW? I loved the way Frost played in Legion. My only complaint for it is the fact that it went way too far away from the “Death” part of Death Knight. With FF and Ghoul being baseline, that fantasy is there. The only reason I want 2h to be good is because I swap between Blood, Unholy and Frost a lot. Having 1 weapon for all 3 being swappable is just a huge QOL change. That’s why Legion being DW exclusive felt fine because Artifacts helped that issue immensely. If Blizz doesn’t go the way of making 2h unique, that’s fine. I’d prefer it but I’m only one individual.
Slap an attack speed buff and a new rune combining FC and Razorice. 2h’s problems are solved. No DW nerfs needed.
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Agreed. I would love to off spec blood and Unholy. 2h Frost makes that much… Much easier. Also, having to fine two good weapons for DW is so annoying to me. I always end up with one weapon 20+ ilvls above the other.
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Then people need to get better ideas. I’m not shifting any goal posts either and I am going to stand by what I have put forward. Is there a problem with it? If so I haven’t seen anyone have any issue with what I have proposed to bring them in line. The only thing I have seen is “it doesn’t have to be that way, we can do these 50 other changes instead of 2 to accomplish the same thing!”
You have to fix the actual issue, what is it about also increasing the ppm of km after the change do you not understand? It would be nerfing DW to buff everything to a good level. I also think you are trying to say 2 different things are the same. You can just add crit chance to 2h though it won’t really do anything. You however can’t just go into the km formula and increase the chance of one weapon or the other since they use the same variables.
What reason do you think they can change it based on the weapon? Because wowhead says something? It’s attack power, weapon dps, and the spec damage aura that goes into its calculation. But sure, let’s just make it harder to balance because that worked out like a dream before.
I don’t really care what you would like, I’ll call them 2h supporters.
Fortunately, for my personal preferences, Bliz does not appear to agree with you and felt the need to try to add 2h Frost back.
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Doesn’t agree with me on what?
I admire the tenacity you guys have to continue arguing. It’s impressive.
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Haha, Im sitting at home bored holding a sleeping 3 month old…
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Seeing value in adding 2h Frost back…
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