Excited for this…but is KM procs off what will amount to a slower auto attack from a 2H weapon be impacted over this?
Icecap is only competitive because of Azerite traits. Once those are gone, its going to be a dumpster talent, and BoS will be the only viable option.
I would love a viable obliterate buffing talent to pick over BoS…
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Like previously stated Gargoyle has been something you could easily base an Obliteration buff off of. I don’t understand how it’s even been allowed to go on as it has. Even with the best possible Azerite traits min maxed around it combined with the near impossible BIS setup of stats, it’s still pull behind a semi competent breathe build. How has Blizz continued to look at Obliteration and think it’s fine? Was the player base not looking at it either or what?
I just don’t like Breath, so any option that’s at least close would be lovely. Right now though, there isn’t one. Oblit is junk, Icecap is junk living on borrowed time, and Breath looks like it might actually be stronger on Alpha than Live. I’m only marginally concerned about them working out how to balance 2H/DW, and way more worried Breath will be the only viable Frost choice.
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i hope 2h doesnt suck it needs to be balanced
icecap doesnt belong on the last row. it should be 3 op moves
i would like breath if it had 4 charges of shooting a fastmoving ball of icy death
obliteration drop the pof part and let km stack
Wow the dk forums are like chill this is awesome we are actually talking and having proper conversations rather than walls of text and insulting each other.
That being said i am looking heavily at frost 2h information when any new info is out. I am a little worried but still have high hopes for 2h frost.
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Here is something about Blizzard, if one aspect is performing well then its fine. If BoS is performing well they dont care about the other talents. If Deathbolt is performing well they dont really care about Nightfall or Drain Soul. If DW Frost is balanced with other specs there is a high likelihood that they might not do anything with 2h.
But they are currently… So whats the larger point? 2h Frost is now an exception to the entire point of your reply.
You think they just added 2h Frost back to ignore it, despite the fact that they could have just added it as a transmog?
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Like what has been stated before, animations can prevent the transmog option. How do you solve for the animations? Not to mention a lot of people said that just was not an option for them and the weapon set had to come back even if it did do less damage. Well they got exactly what they asked for, the weapon set back.
While I was telling everyone this is what would happen if they just lifted weapon restrictions, what did people do? Say I was anti-2h? That I didnt play and I didnt know what I was talking about? Others saying there is no way they would lift weapon restrictions without doing something about it yet what is this going on in alpha right now? The exact thing I warned everyone about and other people were agreeing with me.
Some didnt care about balance and said to let the people that did care about it worry about it. So where are these people now that 2h is back? Some are worrying about it because they just said “it will be a few % and nothing to worry about” or they just dont care now that they can swing around their 2h pool noodle.
The animations argument loses merit when you look and see 2h’s using DW animations on Alpha. The only thing you’d realistically have to do is tweak the attack animations to be a bit faster and considering Icy Talons has existed forever, it wouldn’t be to intense to just make that animation for 2h’s a bit faster.
Yeah you were right, if they just lifted the restrictions there would be problems. So let’s solve those problems. Feedback is important, so lets give some. 2h’s aren’t performing well, so lets tweak the 2h Obliterate numbers independently a bit. Lets buff Glacial Advance a bit to allow for 2h to proc Razorice somehow. Lets apply a crit buff to auto’s when wielding a 2h to even out KM procs reasonable while not having it be equal. Let’s buff Obliteration to work with 2h’s stronger Obliterates. There’s a difference between going “I was right it’s going to suck” and going “I was right, let’s figure out a way to make it not suck”. All you’re doing at this point is shutting down feedback. It’s in the game now, no matter if people wanted it just for cosmetic or QOL, now that we’re past that step lets address the issues and fix them the best we can.
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But people dont want a fast 2h attack animation… sooooo theres that.
Glacial Advance would need to lose its cooldown, or lose its rp cost. For single target its just not a good option to use. Crit isnt even really the issue with 2h, its just the shear amount of chances that DW has over 2h.
If the feedback sucks I will say it sucks, sorry. If my feedback sucks in how to fix it then why hasnt anyone said so? It actually addresses what is going on between the 2 weapons it just has to come with a nerf to DW, to an intended mechanic, just to satisfy some people that hate DW to begin with which I want to then say… why do it? Its not even like the people like the spec, they like the weapon.
How many 2h people have you seen that like playing the spec as it is? A lot that I have seen havent even touched frost since WoD, which explains why they are stuck in that mindset. Most people that have also been playing longer than that would rather have Cata or Wrath Frost back, which incidentally is like the “2h playstyle” that people talk about except it didnt matter what you used KM procs on since you just got so many of them, unless you were 2h.
Blizzard has the final say. The best way to fix it is a combination of runeforges for 2h, nerf dw km proc chances by limiting it to the main hand, and then buff the ppm to compensate for the loss of km procs for both weapons. The question is why would Blizzard nerf an intended mechanic of DW? DW also has half crits but that doesnt contribute to the difference in damage between the weapons that much.
But thats not the question, the question is how can Bliz better balance the skills/passives/talents of FROST to better cater to both DW and 2H equally. Once bliz gets the class performing equally for both weapons, mathematically, you can easily scale that up so that Frost, as a larger spec, is competitive in terms of overall DPS.
Just because changes are made to accommodate 2H, doesn’t mean it has to nerf DW. I get you love DW, thats fine. But I also love 2H. Both of our play-styles should be accommodated.
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Your argument against the simple transmog option wasn’t that people didn’t want the animation, it was that it couldn’t be done. But you’re ultimately right people want the feel, and that can be done.
Ok then, lets drop the to around 4 seconds, have it cost a rune, have stronger 2h specific math, maybe even have it work with Rime in some way similar to how Frostscythe works with Killing Machine. Done. Not a very hard change to even brainstorm. So DW has more chances than 2h, if we can’t equalize the number of chances we need to equalize the probability per chance. I don’t want 2h to get the same killing machines as DW, I don’t think anybody expects that. Instead of the 80-20 the sweet spot would hopefully be 80-40/50, and let a higher independent Obliterate number carry those extra 30/40 missed procs. Buff Obliteration to work with a higher Obliterate, KM procs consumed or RP spent increase your crit multiplier or just the raw damage of Obliterate if that’s overkill.
Where are you getting this idea there’s no other way to buff 2h than to nerf DW? Nobody wants DW nerfed here. DW is fine and should stay as is because it has it’s audience. But leaving 2h as is is unacceptable. At this point take it out and make it transmog if you aren’t gonna do anything. Or just slap a passive on to increase attack speed on 2h’s to match DW and throw in a rune combining FC and Razorice. There are ways to buff 2h’s while leaving DW as is. In fact even with all these proposed buffs DW will probably still be better. But that’s fine. I’ll take the hit of having my Frost parses be lower if it means I can have that feeling, if I really cared about pushing keys or Mythic Raiding, I’ll just swap to Unholy, and being able to have a 2h to just freely swap to from Frost is worth those lesser parses. I’m not nor will I ever advocate for a DW nerf. It doesn’t need to be. You can buff 2h without nerfing DW, it sounds like you just don’t want that.
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That is the best way to do it which is the point. That makes it so that its really just a weapon choice, but they would have to nerf an intended mechanic to do it. Its funny how you guys keep saying “easily this” and “easily that” yet WoD shows that it was NOT easy since it underperformed as a spec.
Its not even that I love DW, if I loved DW so much I wouldnt have even suggested a nerf to DW to fix the KM proc rate. 2h is not a playstyle, WoD had a certain playstyle that people are fixated on and its getting annoying that people cant recognize that. What was the 2h playstyle in Wrath? Cata? What about alpha? It was all the same no matter the weapon, it was the frost playstyle. If you arent in it for frost then just stop. You are doing more harm for the spec overall than good just looking at a weapon set.
Stop with this 2h playstyle nonsense. Guess what, that is what the playstyle was, its just the crappy design of WoD forced DW away from what the spec actually was and people who played DW didnt even like it.
No… It… Did… Not. Please stop with that.
I just cant…
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It wasn’t easy because of how the math worked. Obliterate and Frost Strike both ran off a single equation regardless of which weapon type. Now, they’re are two equations for each weapon type. The situation you described of “they can’t touch Obliterate for DW without buffing 2h” doesn’t need to happen anymore. They can independently change either equation.
A lot of Frost’s old problems also came from the fact it ran of a singular class specific talent tree leaving very little room. The current talent tree is much better in this regard. You want to DW? Icecap and Breathe along with Hysteria and Hypothermic are right there. You want fat Obliterates for your 2h? Obliteration and a buff to the 2h side of the equation is right there. A passive increase to 2h auto crit chance just to make your killing machine procs not equal to DW but nowhere near as bad.
You’re right the general playstyle was the same. Spam Oblitearte, spend RP, manage runes/diseases, etc. But the feeling was absolutely different. 2h was slower and deliberate with larger hits, DW was faster and more active with a low more rapid fire Frost Strike moments. People will still be playing Frost but they’ll be playing a version that feels like what a lot of people associate DK’s with, the slow juggernaut that hits you hard when it gets to you. 2h can be buffed without nerfing DW. Stop arguing it can’t.
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Yeah, it did. It was an underperforming spec. Even other people are saying it wasnt easy then. How about this, without touching MotFW, which there was only one buff to DW through MotFW in WoD and not the millions that you claim, balance the 2 weapons. Increase obliterate damage for one and it impacts the other? This goes for any ability outside of MotFW. Increase in Frost Strike damage? Also a buff to 2h since 2h still used the ability.
DW just attacked faster, the speed in the spec came from rune regen, in wrath rune regen was a constant, in cata it was impacted by haste but also had abilities that filled in downtime if used properly.
Yeah, it can be buffed, that is not the same as balanced, there is a difference. They can buff obliterate damage by 400% for 2h, they can do that by bringing back MotFW, but again that causes problems in both PvP and PvE.
And again, if there is a bad suggestion im going to call it out, you thinking that is the same as saying something cant happen is a you problem, not mine.
1 Like
I don’t want it balanced next to DW though. I’ve stated that constantly. I honestly believe a lot of people don’t want that either. I’m fully willing to once again admit that even with all these changes taken to there extremes, DW will most likely have better parses than 2h. Even with a higher 2h Obliterate equation. But that’s not making DW worse at the end of the day.
If 2h starts to become a problem, tweak that side of the Obliterate equation without touching DW. If Obliteration is causing a problem, tweak the numbers to have it not be as much of a problem. If a new version of GA with 2h leaning is causing a problem, tweak it so it’s as strong of a 2h leaning. None of these things is nerfing DW in an as extreme way as you suggest. DW might get weaker if things like Obliteration and a new GA end up parsing better, but they will always be able to fall on the fact that they have higher procs, more runes, godly Breathe synergies, and build around it via whatever stats sim best. You’ve been saying that you’re simply calling out bad suggestion so let me ask, what about them is bad? How are my suggestion setting DW back when they still have 2 runes, a talent tree with overall better synergy, and having the entire spec built around it for 4-5 years? And how are they worse than simply nerfing DW, setting the entire spec back.