We can't have any more well-written Light antagonists?

[Karestae-moon-guard]

Than timey whimey stuff happens and we go back in time to bully life into existence, thus insuring everything goes according to plan

[Nightsong-mannoroth]

@Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord

As long as we replace what we kill, we shall never run out of things to murder.

A group of trans-dimensional devs walk through a simulated world… time advancing as they moved showing it changing and growing organically over time… “Here we’ve got our stock rank three world ending threats. We started this batch a few years ago, really good stuff well documented with backgrounds and since we planted them early we were able to farm and cultivate them…”

The dev’s grow curious about a machine producing massive quantities of threats… “Over here we’ve got the fifth dimensional printer it really doesn’t do as good of work as a properly grown and… yes its much cheaper… yes we can do bulk orders… … just sign here…”

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Kaileath-wyrmrest-accord

Almost certainly, bonus points if a certain Light Mother sends the Arathi empire visions of joining a glorious army to defeat all shadows and make all one under the Light, so he commands the empire build a grand portal and out of it steps Yrel and her light bound slave army.

A certain Light Mother is a little too dead for that. This also runs into the plot of why no other Naaru had anything to say (certain devs were too busy grooving to their edgelord “drag the Naaru down” arc to care about consistency). And the AU version is busy in the AU.

@Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord

Insert token Alynsa rant about the issues with villainizing and entire playable faction, especially one race, and how it ruins not only that faction’s narrative but also extends far beyond.

The mental gymnastics it takes me to justify Alynsa murdering void cultists when the worst they have done so far is the equivalent of what I had to do for my daily quests against the Alliance, without simply accepting that my Horde characters are just pure sociopathic serial killers currently pointed in the right direction, makes it hard to type out the entire rant. You’ve all seen plenty, so just imagine I typed out a witty one!!

And these void cultists, they didn’t even burn down a single elf tree!! They didn’t even try!!!

At least in the end, the primalists tried.

While I see where you’re coming from, that’s easily fixed. All they need to do is clash with a popular character and try to change them in any way. Do that and people will hate any character you want, plot holes and consistency be damned. Look how much irrational hate Xe’ra got for what she tried to do to Illidan (you’d think she killed fans’ real-life pets given their reactions).

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

While I see where you’re coming from, that’s easily fixed. All they need to do is clash with a popular character and try to change them in any way.

I really don’t think that would help. The Horde already opposed a popular character in the form of Jaina. That certainly has not put them in a position where they are less immoral than void cultists who have barely done anything, and have not come close to touching the Horde’s body count by any measure. In fact, all it did was lead to further villainization of a playable faction (the Horde). Having void cultists actively oppose Jaina for instance does not somehow de-villainize the Horde, because we blew up her whole city, then tried to murder her our own selves.

I think you misunderstood what my post was about.

[Kaileath-wyrmrest-accord]

I was being sarcastic, to some extent… but if you do not think Evil Naaru and their divine bosses that we beat up and take their lunch money is not eventually in the cards after we do the same to the Void Lords and then the Titans, I got a bridge to sell you.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Look how much irrational hate Xe’ra got for what she tried to do to Illidan (you’d think she killed fans’ real-life pets given their reactions).

That’s your point of view. And since you’re determined to flogg this dead horse to undeath, I’ll remind you; From mine, she was trying to inflict a state on him that he didn’t want, and it’s reasonable to assume that she was trying to make him into her tool. Especially given the Mag’har account. She was given ample opportunity to back off and she refused to do so.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

I never said it wasn’t in the cards. I’m saying how it’s been handled is poorly written so far.

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

That’s your point of view. And since you’re determined to flogg this dead horse to undeath, I’ll remind you; From mine, she was trying to inflict a state on him that he didn’t want, and it’s reasonable to assume that she was trying to make him into her tool. Especially given the Mag’har account. She was given ample opportunity to back off and she refused to do so.

Be careful , condemning those actions is objective morality, something you have shown a pathological aversion to. You either have to leave subjective morality to say that or acknowledge your opposition to her actions is hollow - just your opinion; the two are mutually exclusive. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

@Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord

I really don’t think that would help. The Horde already opposed a popular character in the form of Jaina. That certainly has not put them in a position where they are less immoral than void cultists who have barely done anything, and have not come close to touching the Horde’s body count by any measure. In fact, all it did was lead to further villainization of a playable faction (the Horde). Having void cultists actively oppose Jaina for instance does not somehow de-villainize the Horde, because we blew up her whole city, then tried to murder her our own selves.

I think you misunderstood what my post was about.

Good point. Perhaps because the Horde as a whole are also popular. It could work if the other character or group is not popular. If it was Joe Blow the centaur warlord clashing with Jaina, fans would be baying for Joe’s head (I’ve said in the past if Xe’ra had tried to Lightforge Gallywix by force people wouldn’t have complained; not even if it was Ji Firepaw, I think).

Reminds me of this old thread of mine (which aged far too well given a certain lawsuit);

Is the World of Warcraft story anti-justice?

Between all these “revenge is bad” stories, letting edgier characters escape punishment for their crimes and being contrarians attacking everything even vaguely resembling objective morality in their setting, it feels like Blizzard is saying “justice is bad”. Think about it, there’s all these stories in Warcraft about people seeking to take down those who’ve wrong them (eg; Genn, Tyrande, many minor characters) where the person seeking to hurt someone who’s done wrong is treated as in the wrong…

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Be careful , condemning those actions is objective morality, something you have shown a pathological aversion to. You either have to leave subjective morality to say that or acknowledge your opposition to her actions is hollow - just your opinion; the two are mutually exclusive. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Since we’re not in same sort of logical agreement that would be in a logical or mathematical equation it’s more logical to assume that we have different standards for subjective morality.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

The point was by your own logic your criticisms are mere opinion (and thus shouldn’t be taken as fact).

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

Most social standards are nothing more than subjective opinions shared by a sufficiently large group of individuals.

The fact that societies can have such a broad array of different social and moral standards is the nail in the coffin of so-called “objective morality”.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

We’ve already discussed that disagreement doesn’t make something subjective. Repeating yourself won’t change that.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

We’ve already discussed that disagreement doesn’t make things subjective. Repeating yourself won’t change that.

And in those discussions you’ve continually failed to define an objective standard for morality.

Spoilers: Your religion ain’t it.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

To quote a certain movie; " That’s just like, your opinion, man."

(even by your own logic).

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

To quote a certain movie; " That’s just like, your opinion, man."

Yes it is… and touch’e

[Aussielight-dathremar (Aussielight)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

We can’t have any more well-written Light antagonists?

Personally I dislike the shoehorning of powerful ‘light’ figureheads & entities into the villain or morally questionable positions

• Just feels sort of cliche & predictable at this point.

I’d much rather the Naaru remain as benevolent & majorly kindhearted beings — rather than many or ‘most’ being depicted as apparently rather oppressive, single minded and zealotry.

Ultimately, for the Naaru?

At best — My hopes would be that like many societies & even entire worlds, that the Naaru actually have quite a few various governments, beliefs and separate groups with their own unique views

That way you can have the ‘bad’ light aligned Naaru and then ‘good’ light aligned Naaru, who are on our side and ultimately remain benevolent — as they were originally portrayed.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Let’s have some diversity.

Agreed!!

Additionally, to touch back on your thread — Naturally, you could have light antagonists and factions that are aligned with the Naaru that are our enemies, and then factions we know and have fought beside (Argent Crusade, the Sha’tar and even Velen’s Draenei) to be on our side with the allied-Naaru to stand against them

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Good point. Perhaps because the Horde as a whole are also popular.

Thad, I do not think popularity is even a factor into the Horde’s role as a villainized group who have done worse things than the void cultists we are currently facing.

I think you’re really not understanding what I was talking about in the least.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Then I must’ve really missed something. Could you elaborate please?