Eh, it’s not exactly rare, it happens to tons of villains no matter how telegraphed their villainy is. It’s not like there hasn’t been a ton of media lately where the main characters are pretty horrible themselves.
I feel like part of Xe’ra is she was introduced basically right before she got shattered so no one got prolonged exposure to her story, and the story we did get wasn’t exactly painting her in the best light.
Might also tie in with her being a more creepy evil, like Kathy Bates in Misery. Someone obsessed with another who has no problem forcing them to fit her expectations of them.
To chime in on the humanoid or not thing, I’d say that it’d change her vibe from dispassionate extradimensional being too big for her britches evil to more of a personal inquisitor type evil. Her crusade, even if everything stayed the same might feel more emotionally charged with a human face, or even biological face to it than a more mineral form that the naaru have.
The part of the story where she helped the Draenei and recruited volunteers into an army to stop the Burning Legion, putting herself at personal risk with the “Light’s Heart” stunt, doesn’t paint her in the best light? There’s more story to her than “ShE lOcKeD Up ALleRiA” and “sHe TrIeD To lIgHtForGE IlLiDan by ForCe”, but I find most people get blinded by obsessing over those two.
While I like the character study, I do not get the same feeling from both characters.
For one, Anne Wilkes - Kathy Bates’ character - had idea of how things should be revolving around a character she liked in a fictional book series. Xe’ra’s idea of how things should be was regarding stopping a literal demonic army from destroying the universe and killing or corrupting everyone. Anne wanted the author to undo the ending of a fable she hated, mutilated him when he defied her and said she’d kill him when he was done. Xe’ra wanted Illidan to help defeat a universe-destroying demon army as a champion of Light and tried to swap his fel for Light when he refused.
It’s already pretty emotionally charged given how ape people go over that cinematic and how rabidly they hate her.
Before anyone talks about infringing on freedom or free will, plenty of characters, including the player characters, have done that to other characters in the story (eg; Sylvanas’ attempt to force Kolitra to serve her, the Jailer literally possessing Anduin, Illidan using soul magic to coerce Akama…). but they didn’t receive the same level of hatred when they did those.
Then they grasp for any bit of lore that justifies those negative emotions, exaggerating small things or inventing headcanon rather than consider that, maybe, the hype, might possibly… be an overreaction.
So many let themselves get suckered in to swallowing a xxx offender’s edgelord power fantasy that reeks of mummy issues (ah, we all make mistakes). That was one of the first moments that shook me out of enjoying the story, and looking back, it was part of a big wake-up call.
I don’t know if you are ignoring a key point many people have made… :
Xera was grating to many people as soon as she was introduced. It was almost cathartic to have anyone blow her up. If Sargeras blew her up and she was framed as a hero, I would have still been happy, because she was annoying from the get go.
I wanted to get all the quotes from all the posters who basically said “we hated her before the cinematic” but it is your thread, even. It is like you didn’t even read any of the posts, and just pop in to say:
“Everyone is a sucker for the hype”
No. I can definitely say she was annoying the whole way. She actually was preaching that Illidan haters were wrong. So she annoyed fans of other aspects of the franchise who hated Illidan’s edgy personality and antics. And Illidan fans got to see their “Lord” blow her up. She basically United both sides of hate and adoration of Illidan against her.
Which makes the scene at the Vindicaar even more funny. Velen and everyone else is just like: “whatever, let’s salvage some bits and pieces from this broad.”
You seem to be ignoring that it isn’t just a comparison to Illidan, or her actions towards Illidan. It is that her build up was horrible and annoying- and likely purposefully so by the Devs to get the reaction they got.
Wait, are you saying the Jailer didn’t get hate? Was any word uttered about him other than hate? What point are you making even… he got hate for everything. If no one complained about the Jailer mind controlling Anduin, it is because there was so much to hate the Jailer for already, and Anduin is a whiney Nancyboy who needed to man up eventually. Both of them are “meh” Characters. Like Meg from Family Guy.
I didn’t have a strong opinion of her either way. But I’ll do my best to recall the fan critique I remember at the time.
People weren’t fans of how much Xe’ra glorified Illidan. Illidan is a popular anti- hero. People like him edgy. And Xe’ra’s dialogue made people think Blizz was trying to whitewash him. Remember this was also after the Illidan book, where there’s a prophecy of Illidan become a Champion of Light.
People weren’t thrilled with that potential story, and Xe’ra caught flack for it.
People also didn’t like how Xe’ra treated the player. Particularly how, if you had done Black Temple, she actually admonishes the player for killing Illidan.
That earned her mondo hate points.
There’s probably more reasons than that. All I remember is her first impressions through the Illidan quests were not well-received.
The answer to this is probably well beyond my ability to adequately tackle.
But people enjoy crude and crass humor. Particularly when it’s “cartoonish”.
Cotton’s flaws are turned up to eleven. They’re so extreme that they come off as unreal. This can help disassociate him from the real-world issues such flaws would cause.
And I think it’s also due to how Cotton isn’t supposed to be a good character.
Other than his scant moments of sweetness, the show never tries to defend his character. He is not a decent person.
Meanwhile, Peggy is a decent person. At least, as decent as anyone else in a show filled with flawed people. She has her issues and makes her mistakes, but no more so than the other main characters.
And I feel like, across media, if a character is supposed to be “good” but is also flawed, they’re often more vulnerable to critique.
What is typical is your skewed perception of the actions and demeanor of anyone who claims alliance with the Light.
No one ignores Illidan’s deeds nor gives him a pass. He’s simply a lot more fun to work with as antihero, outright villain, or just plain source of parody.
There just isn’t really much about X’era and what there is was pretty much an unpleasant experience for everyone involved.
I’m referring to how the character comes off, not the reaction to her.
A Naaru is a mass of glowing floating crystals. Very mysterious and not that relatable. When you give that being a more human form it makes the people seeing that character think of it as a more relatable being than a windchime giving people headaches.
But all those characters did more than that. Xe’ra didn’t get the development to have the other story notes that people find to latch on to. And are those story beats the ones that people like about the characters?
The only person whitewashing Illidaniel was Xe’ra.
WoW fans fully acknowledge Illidaniel is not a good person. He’s a mixed up, crazy person who frequently makes huge messes everyone else has to clean up.
Xe’ra is the one saying we, the players, are wrong for thinking Illidaniel’s actions were bad. Xe’ra is the only one out here pointing to his dark deals and saying “this was necessary, actually, and you’re wrong for judging him”.
Honestly, it’s odd that you’ve an affection for Xe’ra because she is the very “Illidan Superfan” you decry.
People are giving Illidan a pass. I know they’re not saying his deeds are good, they’re saying “his deeds are bad… but I love him for it and therefore him becoming a better person is bad.” That’s still fanboying/fangirling as much as they accuse Xe’ra of.
Why did people think Lightforging would change his personality? It’s a cosmetic and power swap. At most he’d lose his wings and horn mutations and regain his toes (don’t know about the eyes).
Pot meet kettle; your typical perceptions are even more skewed in the opposite direction. People are giving Illidan a pass because they find him fun, and that’s a double standard that cheapens conflict in a story.
There is absolutely no evidence that lightforging Illidan would make him better. In fact, either:
A) You believe Lightforging does take away free will, which would make Illidan a puppet who acts good but lacks the ability to be good because his actions are not his own. Or
B) Lightforging doesn’t take away your free will, and Illidan would still be a reckless and messy guy, just like he has always been because he is fundamentally the same person.
It’s not, because that’s not anyone’s actual argument. That’s one purely created by you for the purposes of debunking it, and it requires making some blanket assumptions about people in general and a fictional character that do not hold up to said character’s actions.
Because him being terrible doesn’t make us suddenly immoral. Do you think brainwashing is fine, as long as you only do it to bad people?
Because Gul’dan was literally trying to destroy the world. This is a horrible analogy to use.
No. What’s the point of this question?
The only person in the narrative to give Illidan a pass is Xe’ra. The only person in the real world claiming Illidan has been given this pass is you. Every single person I’ve ever seen talk positively about Illidan mention his failings and his mistakes. Nobody else whitewashes him.
No, they are too; they just do it without calling his deeds good.
I changed the comment when I remembered that; which means you have no reason to think Lightforging would change him as a person.
What argument are you talking about?
There’s a reason I changed that question before you replied.
True, though Illidan bent the knee to the Burning Legion too because of addiction and envy.
No, Illidan fans give him a pass too; they do so by saying his actions were terrible, loving him for said terrible actions and then making a stink if other characters do what Illidan does or if there’s a hint he’ll stop being a loose cannon. That said, these comments have given me a greater understanding of both characters, and I thank you for it.
To get back on topic, I see Xe’ra as similar to a few other fictional characters - Imperius from Diablo, Judge Dredd and one of the Vorlons (maybe Kosh, not AU Kosh/Ulkesh). Certainly flawed, dubious whether they’re good but not evil.
Well it’d be pretty bizarre if someone who is heavily, heavily infused with Fel (that typically has an impact on your mind and emotions) switched to being heavily infused with Light (which also tends to have a very different impact on one’s emotions when used).
Then show proof. Everyone posting here has not given him a pass.
This one. Nobody has said that, except you.
And then he turned on them and fought to end them.
They do not. Only Xe’ra does.
That is also not true.
People like Illidan because he is not a perfect character. He’s a scummy edgy character, and nobody denies this. They don’t love him for being scummy and edgy; they love him for a whole variety of reasons, just like you love Xe’ra for a whole variety of reasons.
You’re trying to make an assumption about why people like a character without actually looking at why they do love this character. People have frequently and repeatedly pushed back on your assumption, Illidan fans have repeatedly pushed back on your assumption, yet you have thus far refused to hear any of it because it does not work within your view of your own favorite character Xe’ra.
In fact, the very things you accuse those fans of doing, giving Illidan a pass, could be accused of you with Xe’ra.
You’ve stated a few times that any action she took against Illidan is justified because he is evil, even though according to Xe’ra herself he is not.
You’ve repeatedly minimized her own actions, while going through Illidan’s point for point.
When people explain why they dislike the character of Xe’ra in answer to your question about the fanbase’s rejection of Xe’ra, you’ll redirect it back to in-game things. “Illidan has done far worse than Xe’ra” for instance. I mean, Xe’ra would disagree, because Xe’ra says Illidan did nothing wrong, so maybe you should re-evaluate who you’re a fan of here.
You’re so protective of this dang windchime that it gets honestly very difficult to have a discussion with you any time her name is invoked.
I thought the whole point of Illidan’s “I am my scars” line was because his many, many imperfections make up who he is as a person, which Xe’ra was trying to “heal” with the light. To me, that suggests that the game wanted you to see being lightforged as affecting your personality and identity, or else his stinger line makes no sense.
imo that line was shallow, meaningless dross that people think was deep and meaningful (just like edgelords go for dark subject matter without the understanding to show it well). Tyrande’s line about scars in Dragonflight was better to me; “They’re part of us”.
We’re a small fraction of the WoW fandom. For one, check out the comment section of that cinematic on Youtube.
I was describing the position based on people’s words and actions, not quoting directly.
Several other characters, Xe’ra included, never bent the knee to them unlike him (and for such selfish reasons).
This bit’s turning into a “do not, do too” cycle.
You say they don’t love him for being a scummy edgy character… yet they often shower his scummiest, edgiest acts with praise.
I think Xe’ra was a character who was wasted potential that gets more hate than she deserves (and is the punching bag for the worst Cosby suite dev to project his issues into the story), I don’t love her and only like a few of her moments.
No, I drew conclusions based on evidence, even if I got fired up sharing them. Denials from you and others don’t equal evidence.
Almost, but not quite.
I said that to make people think; to consider that maybe their precious fel junkie isn’t the innocent victim they claim and she’s not the evil windchime they claim.
Pot, meet kettle.
No because, for one, I don’t invent headcanon to demonize Illidan, unlike what I’ve seen you and others do with Xe’ra.
The only moral choice moments of Illidan’s that Xe’ra showed us were his dismissal by Cenarius, him joining the Legion, that bit with the Moonguard and his death in Black Temple. She didn’t say he did no wrong his whole life (at most just those moments), as she was just saying “we need him as a Champion of the Light to defeat the Burning Legion”.
And those missions were to also track down Illidan’s soul so we could pull it from the Nether and reunite it with his body.
Welcome to my world; some WoW fans are so blindly hateful of that naaru that it gets honestly very difficult to have a discussion with them any time her name is invoked.
It 100% would effect his personality. People in WoW are getting infused with all sorts of cosmic juice, and it almost always effects them on a mental level. Cordana Felsong touched an evil orb and 180 kick-flipped to the other team.
Now, Light is often one of the tamer magics. People infused with it tend to be less altered than, say, Fel or Void. But they still tend to come out altered. Particularly in a case like Illidan’s. He isn’t just a normal Human or Draenei, but a “demon”.
The only other similar case is the Lightforged Dreadlord. And even then he’s questionable because:
-We don’t have a clear view of how he was pre-Lightforging so we can’t compare personalities.
-He might still be a triple agent for Death.
-I don’t like him.
Either way, there’s no chance you blast a demon with Light that their personality comes out un-altered.
The orb Cordana touched was a literal mind-control device, she didn’t merely get a sip of fel.
Turalyon went through the same process as Illidan would have (Xe’ra even said the same words - read the short story “A Thousands Years of War”) and was still able to disagree with and challenge Xe’ra afterward.
I don’t know about Lothraxion, except to say since Xe’ra could read minds and had experience fighting Nathrezim I don’t think he could hide other loyalties from her if he’s an agent for Death, but he was able to question and challenger her too, so she didn’t control him.
Again, this is just your words. Find me an example of people praising Illidan for enslaving the broken, for example.
And yet you have not shown this evidence of some mass of people loving Illidan for his bad traits, as opposed to people who love him in spite of them.
You keep getting people telling you they feel the latter, but you keep insisting blindly it’s all the former.
If you think that, maybe you just need to play through the Xe’ra stuff. Because clearly you couldn’t have, if you don’t think Xe’ra was giving Illidan a pass.
Again; provide proof. Provide proof that the people you’re having this discussion with are claiming Illidan is innocent. Any proof that isn’t someone obviously trolling you.
We’re back to providing proof again. Show me a single instance of me minimizing Illidan’s actions. Provide proof of me making up head canon about Xe’ra.
There isn’t any, of course. I know this, and I think you also know this. This is something you do around here and why people find it difficult to have conversations with you; you’ll blindly accuse others of wrongdoing whenever you feel cornered.
You don’t need to do that.
She blatantly said we were wrong to oppose him.
You might be encountering that around here, because you’re the primary culprit in bringing up a character from an expansion released seven years ago, to rehash these same tired and frequently debunked/pushed back against claims you make regarding:
Xe’ra’s actions
Illidan’s actions
What lightforging is
Whether or not forcing someone to perform an action against their consent is evil or not
What Xe’ra herself said about Illidan
How many “Illidan fanboys” there even are
Whether religion factors into a player’s feelings regarding Xe’ra
And more
Most people around here don’t hate Xe’ra. Go down the list of responses in this very thread to your premise question and you’ll see. If people held this hate for Xe’ra that you claim, you’d see a majority opinion that Xe’ra is evil. Instead, the majority opinion is that it isn’t that simple.
These are bugbears created in your mind. They are not the opnion of a majority. You can keep saying “most” or imply it’s a majority, but that simply isn’t true and the evidence has consistently back that up.
I don’t like arguing with you like this Thad, because at the end of the day I don’t think any ill of you. But every discussion inevitably turns down this road, even when it doesn’t have to. You are absolutely welcome to have your opnions, but you really should try to stop invalidating and assuming the opinions of everyone else.
We’re not talking mind control. Mind control exists in WoW and has a very literal definition.
Zoval piloting Anduin around like a meat suit was mind control.
A priest hijacking your body and walking you off the Lumber Mill ledge is mind control.
What happened to Cordana wasn’t mind control.
Dark magic was used in combination with brainwashing tactics to manipulate her feelings and thoughts.
It’s the difference between “I take manual control of your mind and have you murder your friend.” and “I beam anger and murderous rage into your brain so that you choose to murder your friend.”
The latter is what happened to poor Cordana. (And it’s weird the story never treats her like a victim)
And simply having the ability to disagree and challenge Xe’ra doesn’t really mean anything. We’re not saying Xe’ra was mindwashing the Lightforged to turn them into loyal minions.
But the fact is, in WoW, magic can alter your personality. It’s why the Forsaken are such grumpy grumps. It’s why the Orcs had anger issues. It’s why the Twilight Cult was mostly insane.
Now, again, the Light isn’t as extreme as Fel or Void. The Lightforged are mostly normal people. The Light isn’t associated with emotional extremes like Fel and Void.
But even then. If all Illidan’s Light infusion did was even him out and temper is selfishness, that would still be a change to his person rendered upon him by force, without consent.
And as Sarm mentioned above, the dialogue for the cutscene strongly implies the Lightforging would have and impact on who Illidan is.
people go over that cinematic and how rabidly they hate her.