Not even relevant. If demons and whatnots can reform after total obliteration, so can Xe’ra. There is not a wit of evidence to suggest that she and she alone behaves under a different set of cosmological laws.
It was not. You don’t even know what that means; you’re just repeating it because you saw someone else say it and thought it sounded cool.
Xe’ra was mildly inconvenienced. Xe’ra will be fine, and probably already is fine. Illidaniel temporarily upset her at worst, then finished the war she was about to lose.
So there is nothing left for you to be mad at Illidaniel over.
The Light won in the end. The Legion was defeated, Xe’ra took a vacation, all is well.
I’m honestly at a loss for what this thread is even discussing at this point.
Are we even debating whether Xe’ra was ‘good or evil’ at this point even?
Feel like the question to begin with is flawed because what determines ‘good and evil’ is entirely subjective to each person’s morality lol.
She’s also like… a being of pure energy.
The Naaru by design are meant to be alien, odd, and abstract, I don’t even know if they have a concept of ‘good or evil’ that goes beyond their base functions.
Is this Thad’s way of saying that Illidan was in the wrong or something?
I honestly don’t know anymore.
I’d look through the thread more to figure out but considering this thread’s topic has been over the hills and back several times I think I’m just going to save myself that headache lol.
Though this thread has gone off-topic a few times, there are a couple of reasons I made it. I could tell you them, but I’m not sure if you’ve made up your mind already (or had someone else make it for you), in which case I’d be wasting my time.
Maybe there’s some other personal motivation behind it but idk.
Seems like you don’t like Illidan by the way you talk about him, which would lead me to believe that might have been a reason for the thread’s creation.
Believe it or not, despite what some may say, these are the only reasons I made the thread (some were more successful than others).
To highlight double standards in perceptions of characters.
To highlight double standards in the morality of the story/the writing.
To generate discussion.
To challenge ideas based on the first two double standards.
To fairly examine the character without anyone’s emotions clouding it.
I dislike Illidan, but that wasn’t a reason for this thread (just getting sidetracked at times).
I’ve gone on-and-off from playing WoW. There was time I played WoW back when Legion was current content. And say what you will about Xe’ra, she got a ridiculous amount of hate back in the day (especially compared to clearly evil or vicious characters such as Gul’dan, Xavius, Elisande and practically every demon. Even dubious but-maybe-or-maybe-not evil characters like Aluneth didn’t get anywhere near as much hate).
To a certain poster, this question was answered before the thread was made; Xe’ra must be good, because Xe’ra is the Light. The Light can never be evil (ignore the Scarlet Crusade) because the Light is always good (ignore the evil arakkoa also using the Light, and dozens of other organizations bent towards evil that have also used the Light since Vanilla).
This thread was never truly about answering the question about Xe’ra’s morality; it was subtlely about restarting the same tired argument, ignoring all contrary evidence, and pushing back against an alleged recent shift in the Light’s direction (again, we’re ignoring all contrary evidence).
See, you have to know the facts involved in arguments like this for it to make any sense whatsoever.
“Fact”: The Light must always be good.
“Fact”: Anything contrary to the above Light theory is recent.
“Fact”: Anything contrary to the above Light theory that is not recent is a strawman, quote-mined, logical fallasy or insert any other incorrectly applied phrasing that sounds super-smart.
“Fact”: If you disagree with the above, it must be because of an IRL bias against Christianity, because the Light must be Christianity.
“Fact”: Therefore, since the above must be true, you are applying a double standard.
“Fact”: Illidan is just the worst because he opposed the physical embodiment of WoW’s version of Christianity, IE Xe’ra.
I’ll always maintain my stance that while the Light and Void can be used by individuals for good or bad:
Entities of the Light and the Light in essence, are naturally benevolent
Entities of the Void and the Void in essence, are naturally malevolent
There are very few exceptions to the rule, and Xe’ra is partially one of those exceptions due to her benevolence reaching an extreme to the point of not being “good”.
Good and Bad are subjective though, so when I say this I’m primarily referring to the intentions for life and creation as a whole from the viewpoint of the average individual. The Light wants creation to thrive and prosper, the Void wants it to be devoured.
What characters do people like that’re anything like Xe’ra (if they don’t like her)?
Certaintly did that, but it doesn’t seem to have gone in the direction you wanted it too.
I mean, tbf Xe’ra is barely a character to begin with.
She was more of a McGuffin in Legion until we reformed her and then promptly killed her a couple minutes later.
Also, kinda impossible to examine character divorced from an emotional point since the entire purpose of character writing is to imbue somekind of emotion within the reader.
Probably because she was determined to forcefully change a longtime beloved character.
It was also a pretty anti-climactic thing to happen after so much effort was put into rebuilding her, in the view of some at the time.
I don’t think anybody really cares about Xe’ra anymore, it didn’t really make much sense why there was a ‘Prime Naaru’ to begin with.
Tbf, he did originally assess her as being:
But I’m not sure if that was edited in later or if that was originally written into his post.
Looking through the thread, did he ever explicitly state that he believed the Light to be ultimately ‘good?’
If he did, he’s obviously wrong, the light is a force energy as any other force of energy in Warcraft. People tie the idea of the Light towards certain values and morals, but that’s the religion of people, nothing inherently tied to the light itself iirc.
As recent as… 2004 lol.
The Light hasn’t been tied to a ‘good’ alignment since Warcraft RPG, and all of that was retconned by the release of WoW with the Scarlet Crusade being canon.
If he did in fact say this he’s entirely misinterpreted basic theology.
The Light and Christianity aren’t comparable at all beyond basic aesthetics that the Church of the Holy Light takes broadly from Roman Catholicism.
The Light has more in common with the Force from Star Wars than it does with Christian belief.
So, lets get to the bottom of this once and for all.
Thad, do you actually believe these things? Do you believe that the Light was depicted as ‘good’ at one point in the lore?
Do you believe that the Light (not the Church of the Holy Light), but the Light itself has anything cosmologically or theologically in-common with IRL Christianity?
Not in this thread, but in many threads in the past. It was kinda his rise to forum prominence and is part and parcel of most of his Light-related arguments.
He has absolutely claimed people disagreeing with his stance regarding the Light are doing so based on their own IRL beliefs. I believe he has done so in this thread.
I don’t doubt that there’s somekind of unsavory past associated with him.
Tbh, I honestly don’t know anyone on this forum, I’ve largely ignored WoW Story Forum for a long time.
I don’t doubt what you’re saying, but I’d like to give him some benefit of the doubt here to clear the room.
If he responds and denies that he believes this, we’ve got our answer and he doesn’t believe in those nonsensicals.
If he doesn’t respond, or tries to avoid the question… Well, we’ve got our answer, and it’ll be apparent that he hasn’t changed.
he also called me a “Satanist” a few times because I’m agnostic and talked about Gnosticism and Luciferianism. Then he tried to claim that liking certain characters "made me a certain way."all vague but the subtext was there.
Sylvanas, for one. To give one example I’ve used elsewhere, some WoW fans hold Xe’ra locking Alleria for Void use against Xe’ra in “A Thousand Years of War”… but don’t object to Sylvanas - Alleria’s own sister - trying to kill her in BfA.
Not entirely.
Wouldn’t know that from how worked up people got over her back when Legion was current content.
It is possible to do an assessment of a character and separate personal feelings, though it can be difficult for the reason you stated.
That was one reason, though that doesn’t mean the hate was proportionate.
That’s still my assessment of her, and - believe it or not - that’s what was originally written.
At most I’ve said the Light was flawed good. Perhaps good, but I never said it was flawless. And I never considered Xe’ra a phyiscal emobiment of Christianity itself - that’d be Christ. If we did that, the closest to Xe’ra would be the Archangel Michael. Alynsa’s comment on my position is very wrong.
I’ve been open to the possibility that the Light itself in WoW is good even if it can be used for evil. Alynsa and I have discussed in the past about the Light, and we agreed to disagree due to uncertainty of lore whether it was the Judeo-Christian God from Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos and before.
In the first RTS game “Warcraft: Orcs and Humans” Humans were the standard European medieval civilization, the Orcs were demon worshippers and Heaven and Hell were directly referenced and called that.
The Light in Warcraft 2 at the very least seemed to resemble God but by another name (the churches even had crosses). It certainly wasn’t God by the time of WoW. I even compared Light and Void to Yin and Yang back in the time of Legion.
Barely. The Naaru are partially analogous to angels, the supernatural power and the generation of positive feelings, but that’s it.
Alynsa is only giving you one side of the story.
There are others I’ve clashed with on the forums, most of whom have cropped in this thread at some point, whose pasts are just as “unsavory” or moreso. Especially as Mithonic, formerly known as Renautus and Karestae formerly known as Micah. And you’ve probably noticed Drahliana’s hostility at the mention of anything objectivist or positive about Christianity. Cursewords and I have clashed in the past, but I think we’re more friendly rivals now than actually enemies. And we happen to have very opposite religious views or political views that don’t align (I’m independent mainly hovering around center right while most of them hew either much more left or independent).
Renautus - the one I clashed with most - at one pointed identified as a Gnostic and then a Luciferian, and Micah had a few times said he was a pagan. Maybe their positions have changed since, but they were true at the time. And both have a far worse reputation than I, hence why they changed their avatar characters.
Reminds me of a quote Smallioz said comparing me and Mith/Ren. He said I was like getting a blood from stone, but was at least sincere in my opinions. And this butting heads with Alynsa is more recent.
Funny accusation from Alynsa considering how she and a few others have accused ME of disagreeing with THEIR stance based on MY IRL beliefs.
I have not said everyone, or even anyone, who disagrees with me about the Light does so because of their RL beliefs. If I said anything remotely like that about anyone, it was only few of them; those who also mocked me while criticizing my position and expressing a major grudge against Christianity and combining the two in their arguments.
I’m skipping your other lies to just focus on this lie.
Actually? No, I never accused you of that. I’ve never once accused you of disagreeing with my stance based on your religious beliefs.
I’ve asked in the past if you if you feel your beliefs might color your opinion, but you wouldn’t clearly answer the question and instead opted to call my question a strawman because reasons.
But I’ve always been upfront with the fact I expect your reasons for disagreeing with my views are at a minimum mutlifaceted, and yes religion might be one of those facets.
I know you have a habit of conflating your experiences with every single person here to whomever you’re currently arguing against, but kindly do try and stop falsely attributing other people’s prejudices to me.