In WC3, Arthas confronts Mal’ganis and kills him with Frostmounre, remarking that the voice he hears is the Dark Lord of the Dead.
Which I assume now is Zovaal…
Later, in WotLK, Mal’ganis is disguised as Grand Admiral Westwind, the leader of the Scarlet Onslaught. When the player defeats this character, he yells “I am Mal’ganis” and retreats to his home world.
But before doing so, he yells:
“You’ll never defeat the Lich King without my forces. I’ll have my revenge… on him AND you!”
Fast forward to Shadowlands and us now… was it ever stated why Mal’ganis is now working for the Jailer, defending him in The Sepulcher of the First Ones?
He just wants to kill us for refusing to release him.
He of course first got to work on business matters with the greater plan that Denathrius is scheming but once that was done he was free to join Zovaal in hopes of getting his revenge against us!
His first scheme of course is using our face and name(taking advantage of the fact that’s all everyone knows about us) to cull our armies followed by him mocking us with his second scheme being to kill us in the Raid.
The Dreadlords work for Sire Denathrius, not Zovaal. Denathrius was a close ally of Zovaal, ans the Dreadlords have worked for him since Warcraft 3. Why Denathrius is apparently still working with Zovaal, despite the fact that Zovaal betrayed him and made no effort to free him, is anyone’s guess.
As much as I don’t really like the Zovaal inserting that would be something of an effective use of that title that never gets used again after that point.
It is still Ner’zhul that told Arthas to claim his revenge.
It is why Mal’ganis was shocked that Ner’zhul would dare allow Arthas to do it. And it was that act that made the other dreadlords begin to doubt Ner’zhuls loyalty. However they were too far into the plan and Archimonde was getting impatient.
Honestly what I don’t get is why does he ask us to free him when we were the ones who defeated him back in Wrath. Like he should’ve known that we wouldn’t have helped him. I do wish that you had different text from that quest if your character was made prior to Cata and you had done that chain in Icecrown.
The Lich King was deemed a failure by Zovaal. What I don’t get is, if Zovaal could see through the helm as he does in Shadowlands, why didn’t he know that Ner’zhul wanted to do his own thing? Why didn’t he tip off Denathrius and thus the dreadlords to abort the mission? Even more so after Ner’zhul used Arthas to tip off Illidan about the Skull of Gul’dan and Tichondrius. I mean the Dreadlords were suspecting that the orc wasn’t loyal like he claimed.
Almost like the story of WC3 was written without some “master” man behind the curtains and Zovaal was ham-fisted into the plot because reasons.
Nearest I can figure is that Ner’zhul and Arthas were failures because instead of Scourging Azeroth, Ner’zhul failed by getting tangled up with internally fighting for control with Arthas instead of retaining control, and then Arthas failed to get the job done by drawing things out with his plan to corrupt the players and getting himself killed.
It’s possible that had either of them prevailed and raised everyone on Azeroth as Scourge, that many souls feeding the Helm’s power could have made its influence impossible to resist and Zovaal could have then forced them to do whatever he wanted.
Though admittedly the whole Arbiter thing breaks it by putting a hard timeline on his plan, since it’s being established that he couldn’t start to do what he’s been doing in Shadowlands until we invaded Argus, killed the Death Titan and caused the universe’s souls to all start going into the Maw. None of which could have really happened if any of the Lich Kings had Scourged Azeroth and succumbed to Zovaal’s control, since the Scourge invading Argus under some other circumstances wouldn’t have worked with Sargeras himself and his entire regenerated hierarchy of subordinates right there to oppose it.
The Argus bit really mucks it all up because instead of the Jailer and his allies just capitalizing on how things turned out, Argus’ soul being the mechanism needed to disable the Arbiter creates a situation where everything had to happen precisely as it happened and when it happened for his plan to work. A plan that’s been in motion far too long for the dreadlords to have possibly arranged events with such precision and foresight, regardless of their cunning.
I mean what would they do if Velen didn’t chase Kil’jaeden through the closing portal in the Tomb of Sargeras? That was the event that led us to Argus in the first place. As Illidan opened up a portal from Argus to Azeroth to avoid dying to Kil’jaeden exploding. Which promoted us to launch a strike team to Argus to defeat the legion before Sargeras could corrupt Azeroth. Which we barely managed to do.
This is a big problem I have with it all and it’s probably part of the reason I struggle to view Zovaal as this “master manipulator”.
I don’t care how smart you are, plans almost never go entirely right. The idea that Zovaal sculpted this master plan and then everything happened exactly as he wanted is absolutely asinine.
It doesn’t even feel like a grand manipulation, it feels like this big grey nobody got lucky as everything happened to pan out precisely as it needed to for him to get to where he wanted to go. And he’s turned around at the end of it all like “uh…yeah…right according to plan ”
The Dark Lord of the Dead was Ner’zhul. The only thing to suggest that Zovaal had any sort of direct contact with the Scourge during the Third War was the notion of Kel’Thuzad only ever serving one true master. It’s why the notion of Kel’Thuzad only serving Zovaal is problematic because it raises more questions… like why did Zovaal only focus on Kel’Thuzad, why did Kel’Thuzad help rescue Arthas from the Dreadlords and Sylvanas when it was clear that Ner’zhul and Arthas would follow their own scripts over Zovaal’s?
I have to admit it did really surprise that Mal’ganis had no presence in 3.3. I really thought that he would be defeated as apart of a quest chain or even as one of the dungeon or raid bosses via invading ICC and fighting us as a result.
Mal’ganis is working for the Jailer because Sire Denathrius has commanded that the dreadlords work with Zovaal in order to benefit should Zovaal be victorious. Though considering that Zovaal left Denathrius to his fate, it’s possible that he was a plan in mind to screw Zovaal over with his agents while obtaining something from the Sepulcher of the First Ones himself.
Hell even Sidious had things not go his way during the Clone Wars. He got control of the banking clans far later than he would’ve liked via senate. All because of Padme.
But a true master manipulator will find a way to turn that loss into a potential victory. You do not need to win every battle to win a war.
Honestly would’ve made more sense than the gunship fight.
Oh yeah, lets attack each other over who gets to kill Arthas because reasons. Which is even more funny as neither of them are involved in the Lich King encounter. So why did they have a pissing contest again?
It’s not like the Nathrezim couldn’t form a Raid Party themselves! Not to mention Argus had the ability to End All Things just like Zovaal’s remote sacrificing of the World Soul of Azeroth does so Argus awakening is just as acceptable a situation as him dying.
Infact Argus awakening means Sargeras dies and the Legion can grab his World Soul and throw it at the Arbiter instead.
In otherwords Zovaal has multiple means to pull off his master stroke which in his mind would result in 2 possibilities:
Zovaal escapes to Zereth Mortis, sacrifices Azeroth wiping out all Life and begins redesigning reality
All Life is wiped out and then Zovaal escapes into Zereth Mortis to begin redesigning reality
The possibility that he would lose probably never crossed his mind.
The moment the Legion found Argus was when Zovaal’s plan became a possibility in his mind. The Titans had already revealed Azeroth’s existence to the Legion so Zovaal already had a backup plan to End Reality should Argus be defeated so Argus’s discovery made Zovaal’s victory a certainty in his mind.
The discoveries of Sargeras, Azeroth and Argus set Zovaal’s Plan in motion in a way where everything would end either with his victory or with his demise at our hands.
OR!! Zozo’s plans are so intricate, so complex, so bafflingly masterful, that he even works against his own interests at time, all in service of his own self-interests!!
I mean, clearly this character is so beyond our intellect that his plans only look like they were slapped together by imbiciles and hack writers, because we are just not on his intellectual level!!
I think every single person on this forum should like this post and quote these paragraphs pointing out abysmally dumb a retcon “It Was All According To Zovaal’s Plan” really is.
And this is what differentiates an actual tactical master and whatever Zovaal is.
Julius Caesar is widely considered to be one of the greatest generals this world has ever seen, but things didn’t always go according to plan.
When he was besieging Alesia his plan was to build a wall around the city to starve the Gauls out after the Gauls had enacted a scorched earth campaign to rob the Romans of resources as the Romans were using locally sourced resources to sustain themselves. So the Gauls attempted to starve the Romans out but Caesar realised that it impacted the Gauls as well and so turned their own plan against them.
However, the rest of Gaul united and before long a horde of Gauls was making it’s way to Alesia to push the Romans out. So Caesar built a second wall surrounding the first wall and his legions lived between the two walls. In that way Caesar was able to maintain the seige upon Alesia while repelling the Gaulish reinforcements. Resulting in his victory at Alesia and the conquest of the rest of Gaul in one fell swoop.
What’s my point and what does Caesar have to do with WoW? My point is that Caesar’s move at Alesia wasn’t considered brilliant because he encircled a city to starve it out, it was his reaction to the large reinforcing force that displayed his brilliance. A lesser general would have lifted the seige and fled, died trying to hastily force an end to the siege or died trying to out-wait the seige only to have the reinforcements arrive before the besieged city broke. All of which happened elsewhere in history. It was the second wall that differentiated Caesar, but without his plan going awry and the Gauls spontaneously uniting despite having shown no desire to do so up until that point the second wall doesn’t happen.
That’s Zovaal to me, he’s Caesar without the second wall because he never needed the second wall because everything just went to plan. Leaving us in a situation where we’re told he’s this master manipulator but not shown it.
Then why didn’t they? Why would Zovaal rely on the secret “manipulation” of others when he had Denathrius and the Nathrezim? Why would he ever rely on a string of events beyond his direct control leading to the people of Azeroth storming Argus? Hell, couldn’t he have just had the Nathrezim enact the plan earlier if that were the case?
Why wait u until that string of events led the people of Azeroth to Argus?
If Argus scours the universe while the Arbiter is active, Zovaal gets nothing.
Do we know how they managed to get the soul of Argus into the Shadowlands? It doesn’t make much sense that something like a world soul can just be thrown into an afterlife that they’re not supposed to be in, interrupting it’s function, without any preparation required at all.
Was Sargeras also given the same treatment as a backup? Is it possible to prepare the soul of Sargeras without him knowing and intervening since he’s long been an active titan and not a dormant world soul?
It’s soo frustrating, are we just supposed to think that Zovaal had every possible contingency plan in place despite being given minimal details as to what that would even look like?
How does the second one work? How does Zovaal escape to Zereth Mortis without the Arbiter being made inactive?
Why would Azeroth be the backup? The Legion serves Zovaal far better than Sylvanas does.
Once again, how does a world soul end up in the Shadowlands? Could the world soul of Azeroth have even been flung into the Shadowlands without prior preparation?
Not necessarily, it was possible that he ends up trapped in the Maw because the Arbiter is never deactivated.
Backup in wiping out all Life not getting Anima to the Maw which Denathrius already was planning to do anyways.
Denathrius had already caused the Anima Drought when his Nathrezim kidnapped the Primus(it is stated that the Primus disappeared at the beginning of the Drought) following WC2(I.E. when Zovaal learned of Human Paladins that were being grabbed by Kyrian and taken to Bastion unlike Draenei Paladins which were either grabbed by Naaru Prime on Argus or kept as Spirits by D’ore and ensconced in Auchindoun) before WC3.
The Souls being funneled into the Maw is merely extra Anima at that point only needed to ensure Sylvanas defeats Bolvar so that she can bring in potential candidates for the mission to steal the Archon’s Sigil.
As for how the Nathrezim could get the Soul of any dead Titan they got their hands on to the Arbiter: Souls get to the Arbiter because Kyrian pluck them from the Veil and take them to Oribos and if you think the Nathrezim are incapable of going to the Veil, grabbing Sargeras or Azeroth’s Souls and flinging them at the Arbiter then you underestimate what beings of Death are capable of!
Naturally throwing Sargeras at Oribos would have to be done before the Kyrian grab most of the Souls from the end of all life in existence due to Argus killing everything which is tricky business not that failure would be a problem since Devos would be forging the Forsworn from the effects of Denathrius’s Anima Drought being felt due to the Souls no longer coming in due to everyone being dead while Kel’Thuzad would be directing the Maldraxxi to attack Bastion as well.
The Revendreth Anima stolen by Denathrius itself(provided it not be cut off like when we cut it off during the Castle Nathria Raid) could have enabled Zovaal to get to Oribos to reclaim his Sigil.
Shutting off the Arbiter was only necessary because Bolvar refused to play ball. If Argus won Bolvar(and literally everyone else in the Great Dark Beyond, the Light, the Void, the Twisting Nether and the Gardens of Life) would have been dead anyways and Zovaal could have simply let Denathrius empower the Maw(dumping all the Anima he plundered from the Realms of Death) while letting Devos grab the Sigil.
Having Devos grab the Sigil was also the plan he went with when he learned he could get her to his side(an unexpected opportunity) with the esteemed Paladin getting close to the Archon and grabbing her Sigil plan being saved as a backup yet being prepared as quickly as possible due to Zovaal’s impatience.
Technically the reason Zovaal failed was because he wanted his New Plan done after getting the tool needed for the Original Plan he intended to fall back on should the New Plan fail and in doing so brought in the one group capable of foiling the New Plan which was also the one group capable of killing him!
His refusal to go with the new plan before his backup was ready(or before Argus had wiped out all Life) for immediate use foiled the new plan and brought about his demise!
This isn’t my understanding of the situation at all and doesn’t make much sense honestly.
First of all, if Denathrius did not require the Arbiter to be inactive and the souls being fed into the Maw after the Arbiter was made inactive don’t matter much, then what was the point of BfA and bringing Sylvanas and the likes in? Zovaal had already attempted to take the sigils in the past and he’s only grown more powerful through the feeding of the Maw and his control over the “domination” magic that was forced upon him when he was originally “jailed” - which he did not have access to prior to him being sent to the Maw.
The idea that suddenly Zovaal would require Sylvanas and Anduin to be in the Shadowlands to enact his plan doesn’t make sense. He didn’t need them to be in the Shadowlands when he last tried to enact his plan while in a weaker state, so why would he need them now that his strength has grown exponentially and he has the Mawsorn on his side as well?
In fact why even have Sylvanas break the veil at all? Once the Arbiter is inactive and all souls are being channelled into the Maw it’s only a matter of time until Zovaal finds himself in a position where he can enact his plan and reach the Sepulcher to find whatever it is he’s seeking there. Once again he didn’t need Sylvanas and Anduin to enact the plan the first time so why now?
Even if he did need Sylvanas/Anduin, couldn’t he have just had Sylvanas orchestrate the deaths of both her and Anduin? That way their souls can be taken from the veil and dropped off to the Jailer (assuming they don’t just go straight to the Maw anyway since the Arbiter is inactive post-Legion) without anybody that Zovaal does not want to enter the Shadowlands being able to freely follow them without potentially dying themselves and why would they have any reason to want to die given that from their perspective Sylvanas and Anduin simply died like everybody else that did during BfA. There’s no split in the sky above ICC to spur the people of Azeroth on to entering the Shadowlands, heck if they aren’t aware that souls are going directly to the Maw then they wouldn’t even know how to get to Zovaal/the Maw because they wouldn’t think that simply dying would get them there.
Also to my understanding Denathrius had not caused the Anima drought prior, that was the inactivation of the Arbiter which meant that souls were no longer reaching the other domains at all. Denathrius was just stockpiling anima himself for use in the service of Zovaal. Perhaps Denathrius would eventually have managed to build up a large enough stockpile but it’s difficult to say how long that would take as with the Arbiter inactive the amount of anima being channelled into the Maw would have had to have been monumental. You’re talking every death on every planet in every alternate universe all channelling into the Maw.
No, you’re overestimating them I’d say.
This isn’t an average mortal soul, this is a titan’s soul. A soul capable of causing the Arbiter to go inactive and essentially bring the Shadowlands to its knees. The idea that such a soul could just be plucked out by Nathrezim feels like nonsense.
And once again raises issues. Why were none of the other titans taken to the Shadowlands if it was soo easy? We learnt in Legion that Sargeras literally had the spirits of the pantheon (minus Eonar) in his possession and even successfully tainted one of them (Aggramar). So Zovaal couldn’t have orchestrated taking one of those titan souls to the Shadowlands earlier since it’s soo easy and requires little to no preparation? He could have made the arbiter inactive earlier and thus had souls being fed into the Maw for longer, which only benefits him. Sargeras killed the entire Pantheon once and it was only a spell cast by Norgannon that saved their souls from going to the afterlife, he couldn’t have just killed one again so the Nathrezim could drop that titans soul off into the Shadowlands? Surely it shouldn’t be too hard for a master manipulator like Zovaal to convince Sargeras to kill a member of the Pantheon again when Sargeras very clearly had no love for the members of the Pantheon. For it to make sense, the world soul of Argus had to receive some sort of preparation prior or else plot holes start to pop up. Which would mean that unless Sargeras and Azeroth also somehow went through that same sort of preparation as backups then the deactivation of the Arbiter relied entirely upon the death of Argus.
It was not Denathrius’ drought, Denathrius was causing the drought in Revendreth which was supposed to be an anima rich domain due to the way that it functions. Denathrius was hoarding the anima that Revendreth was creating instead of sharing it with the other domains or even his own domain really. Denathrius did not cause the drought across the entirety of the Shadowlands, that was the Arbiter being made inactive. It’s just that instead of helping the Shadowlands weather the drought with the vast levels of anima that Revendreth contains, he instead stockpiled it in service of Zovaal.
If the universe was wiped out, then a titan that could be flung at the Arbiter would have to die before the majority of the “mortals” did. Otherwise the Arbiter is not inactive and the souls of the universe are mostly just sorted into their respective domains. If the scouring of the universe was a backup plan it hinged on one of the most powerful beings in the universe dying before all of the significantly weaker beings. Which seems like quite the gamble.
How does Denathrius stop all of the souls from being sorted into their respective destinations while the Arbiter is active? If he could do that, then flinging a titan soul at the Arbiter is entirely pointless because the Arbiter doesn’t even need to be inactive if Denathrius can just plunder the souls anyway and cause a Shadowlands wide drought with the Arbiter still active. It would also raise the question of why he and Zovaal didn’t do it all much sooner?
Except none of that was necessary.
As I’ve highlighted here, Zovaal had already attempted this plan prior without the Maw and all of the anima that was channelled directly into it post-Legion or the Mawsown or the powers of domination that he now wields. Zovaal literally just needed to build his power through the feeding of excessive amounts of anima into the Maw while the rest of the Shadowlands suffered under the drought and Denathrius stockpiled the anima being created in Revendreth, then he could have enacted his whole plan on his own without ever needing to risk it.
I’ve also mentioned above that Sylvanas didn’t even need to break the veil, all she had to do was die to reach Zovaal.
He failed because his plan doesn’t actually make much sense once you look at it.
Nope, it’s still Ner’zhul, who’s giving Arthas guidance. Ner’zhul is using Arthas to break free of the Burning Legion so has been manipulating both Arthas AND pulling a scam on Mal’Ganis
If it helps, think of Ner’zhul as Palpatine, Arthas as Anakin Skywalker, and Mal’Ganis as Count Dooku.
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