Was it ever really explained why anyone should trust the Zandalari again after Thunder king?

Lore Story Forum
41

Keep in mind that Vol’jin didn’t meet with Rastakhan, but with the Prophet Zul who was passing himself off as the representative of Rastakhan.

You need to understand the kind of balls it took for Vol’jin to choose to stay loyal to the Horde in the face of what Zul was passing off as an edict from the King.

The Zandalari are considered the cultural and spiritual leaders of all trolls, keepers of sacred knowledge and the priests and scholars of the most ancient traditions. To put it in a human perspective, Rastakhan was the ‘pope’ of being a troll and Zul was his ‘archbishop’ and he showed up declaring a holy war to retake the promised land from the ‘heathens’ who were now occupying it.

As to the topic itself, yes it’s spelled out several times in game that Zul isn’t actually acting on orders from Rastakhan, and had actually manipulated the King into giving him what support he had simpler because Zul was the most senior troll on the Zan’chuli council and a proven prophet of great power and insight. Zul lied about Zandalar sinking into the sea to get the fleet of ships he first used to rally the lesser tribes to his cause and then later used to invade Pandaria. Zul’dazar plans, however, reached far beyond simple conquest of Pandaria and instead revolves around a plot to learn the Mogu’s secret of reviving ancient kings so he could resurrect the first king of the Zandalari as his puppet so Zul could assume control of the throne directly after murdering Rastakhan.

Now from the Alliance perspective obviously Zul was dangerous and imprisoning home was probably the best thing they could do. From the Horde perspective Zul was not to be trusted, but he might be used as a bargaining chip and as a sympathetic voice on the Zan’chuli Council were the Horde to rescue him.

It probably was wrong of the Alliance to arrest the Princess of the Zandalari, if only because she had committed no crimes against the Horde or Alliance at the time that we know of. Taking her into custody is one thing, but locking her in the stockades seems like a really time dead move by Anduin, and almost intentional - as though he was expecting someone to try and come rescue her.

It’s possible Anduin was playing a bit of a political game and took Talanji knowing Sylvanas would try to rescue her and had heightened the security in Stormwind to capture her would be saviors when they showed up. However, we’ll never know if this was the case, as if it was then it was a dramatic failure and it’s unlikely Anduin would freely admit to gambling with so many Alliance citizens lives.

9 Likes
42

Pretty much this. The starting Horde narrative depicts Rastakhan as kind of in his own world while his empire is falling to ruin around him. It’s a kind of King Lear/Theoden situation, with his daughter, aided by the players, hoping to open his eyes before it’s too late.

Basically, the Zandalari empire was being run by a whole bunch of factions, often at cross-purposes, and some of them actively malignant, especially the one led by Zul.

As to why the Horde should trust them now? We work with Talanji to save the Zandalari Empire and know we can trust her - she owes us.

Though I’m not so certain about how happy she’ll be to learn that we are BFFs with Jaina again.

4 Likes
43

She’ll just have to deal with it. Rastakhan is the entire reason why the blood trolls almost got to turn Zandalar into an Old God feeding ground. He refused to surrender after throwing himself into a war, and died as a valid combatant.

2 Likes
44

Except it wasn’t. Seeing as how Rastakhan never punished or removed Zul from his post for such heinous actions that is granting Zul Rastakhan’s support in those endeavors. That is to say, Zul, Talanji, and Rastakhan are in this “we tried to kill everyone and enslave pandaria again.” boat together.

If Rastakhan had punished and/or jailed Zul then sure, the alliance would have less justification in punishing Talanji, if not none. But as it stands Zandalar and its government granted Zul its full backing and support when he tried to conquer Pandaria.

4 Likes
45

I’ll also point out that from Stormwind’s perspective, the Zandalari’s actions in Cata were a direct threat to Stormwind itself. A reborn Gurubashi Empire is literally right across Stormwind’s southern border. If the Gurubashi became as powerful as the Zandalari were trying to make them, they would’ve been an existential threat to the kingdom. More than the Defias, more than the Dark Horde in Blackrock Mountain, more than Onyxia behind the scenes. It would’ve been the greatest danger to Stormwind since its destruction in the First War.

So yeah, when the unrepentant, unpunished guy responsible for all that is captured by your forces? You lock him up, along with everyone who was with him.

2 Likes
46

I fail to see why Princess Talanji should be held responsible for Zul’s actions.
That’s like saying the Horde should have arrested Jaina for Dailen’s attack on Durotar despite her having no hand in it. Completely illogical.

That’s simply untrue. What we see in Pandaria are those who willingly followed Zul, not Rastakhan. The only support given to them were the ships that they sailed on to find a new place to settle for those seeking refuge from the cataclysm. The deal brokered with the Mogu to conquer the northern province of Pandaria was entirely Zuls doing.

As to this requirement that Rastakhan should have punished Zul to somehow absolve Talanji:

A.) We don’t know that Zul wasn’t punished because we don;t know what happened to him between the end of Mists and the end of Legion

B.) Even if he were not punished it’s uncertain if Zul was truthful to Rastakhan about his actions in Pandaria, as it seems very unlikely that he would confess to failing both securing a new home for the Zandalari as well as antagonizing the Horde and Alliance. It’s likely Zul would have instead spun some sob story about being attacked by the factions and forced to enter an alliance of convenience with the Mogu simply to survive.

C.) Even if none of that were the case, Zul is still the eldest statesman on the Zan’chuli Council, and thus it would be difficult even for Rastakhan to punish him so long as he hadn’t outright turned traitor. The earliest Rastakhan could punish Zul was at the point that the prophet quite literally stabbed him in the back.

2 Likes
47

Horde posters point to Saurfang not knowing whether or not Genn was punished by Anduin but Genn still having Anduin’s ear as justification for the War of the Thorns.

But not knowing whether or not Zul was punished but Zul still having Rastakhan’s ear somehow makes the Zandalari ally worthy?

I don’t like this double-standard.

4 Likes
48

That’s a straw man argument. If you reread the conversation, I’m pointing out that the Alliance wanting to punish Zul is not justification for punishing Princess Talanji in the same way based off of the assumption that ‘Rastakhan never punished Zul so Talanji is guilty by association’.

Again, it’s like saying Jaina should have gotten the same treatment as Daelin from the Horde simply by dent that she was his daughter.

3 Likes
49

Desperation made the Zandalari worth approaching; as did opportunity … nothing else.

The fact that Rokhan and his Darkspear hit it off with the Zandalari (and Baine hit it off with Talaanji) were happy coincidences … that also presented opportunity. It also helps that by all indications the Zandalari are the ONLY Troll Tribe other than the Darkspear that have remained devout to Bwon (in that they do not practice Necromancy).

EDIT: As a side note, I keep thinking about the Golden Eyes within Vol’jin’s questline and can’t help but think that Rezan will have some role to play in his future (hence another likely binding agent being built up between the Horde’s two troll tribes).

50

To be fair, I do not know your personal stance on the idea of the Horde justifying the War of the Thorns because of Genn’s attack on Sylvanas at Stormheim.

I would keep this to what I brought up, though, that in this same vein, the Horde is not justified for attacking the Night Elves for what Genn did and trying to apply guilt by association there, either.

Though the Alliance does not have a track record of giving royalty special treatment when it comes to imprisonment. Kael’thas was jailed same as all the rest of the Blood Elves and Dalaran didn’t put up any protests against that, either.

I guess this was also the reasoning behind the Horde and Alliance working together at Nazjatar, too.

51

If Zul wasn’t punished for trying to wipe out the horde and alliance this means the Zandalari and its government supports him and what he did. Full stop. As a result Zandalar and all of its government and the nation itself is hostile to the horde and alliance. This includes Talanji.

It’s like if the vice president of the USA lead an attack on another nation with the blessing of the president even though the president disliked him personally. It isn’t going to matter that the President didn’t like the Vice President, the only thing that’s going to matter is where this issue falls politically and if that guy is still the Vice President after this that means the entire US government supports him and whatever he did.

I mean, if we go with the logic you’re employing here. Countries could wage war on each other all the time using people the leader of the country dislikes on a personal level but agrees with on a political one. Then when they committ a bunch of war crimes before coming back. The leader could just say. “Oh, whoops. don’t worry, I don’t like that guy personally so its cool that my countrymen under my orders ravaged your lands and killed all your family.”

Terrible analogies i know. :stuck_out_tongue:

Your Jaina-Daelin example is also kind of weird in that Jaina directly opposed her father and admonished him so hard it resulted in his death. Talanji and Rastakhan on the other hand directly supported Zul by first, explicitly providing him resources to wage his wars, and second by not admonishing him if he did act out of turn (which he didn’t because he had King Rastakhan’s blessing).

2 Likes
52

To be fair, my position or lack of one is irrelevant to the conversation. Neither Genn’s actions nor Zul’s actions have anything to do with Princess Talanji’s actions, and I’m surprised I have to keep reiterating such an obvious thing.

If Rastakhan even knew about something that happened half a world away.

Also, again, you are assuming Zul wasn’t punished. We have no idea if he was or was not. Being forced to go on a diplomatic mission with Talanji to apologize to the Horde and ask for their aid may have been part of a punishment for him.

Have you ever considered that Talanji May have been willing to turn over Zul for the Horde to punish as a bargaining chip to secure their support? I can’t of another reason to send him with her than to offer his head up as a peace offering if it were required.

Also your terrible analogies and gross misrepresentation of what I’m saying is so terrible I don’t even know how to address it directly.

Zul is not the Vice President of the Zandalar. He wasn’t under orders from Rastakhan to do any of the things he did, that was all part of his own plans.

Yes, real world governments actually do sacrifice unpopular generals and blame them for wars that they conduct, but that is better what happened here, nor an accurate picture of the events that happen in game. The Zandalari Empire never declared war on the Alliance or the Horde, Zul and his followers did.

A better description would be a terrorist organization declaring war on a nation after appropriating humanitarian aid from their home nation and deciding to use it for war instead of its intended relief purposes.

The resources Zul was given, again, were boats for refugees fleeing a sinking Zandalar. They were supposed to go and find a new home. Zul is the one who chose to use those resources to wage a campaign to re-establish Troll supremacy.

It’s clear from the moment the Horde first meets Talanji that she neither trusts nor supports Zul and considers him as much a snake as we do. Bottom line is Talanji never should have been lumped in with Zul and it shows how shortsighted and narrow minded the Alliance is when it comes to other races.

6 Likes
53

You’re maybe surprised because you’re avoiding the context of the setting. Genn’s actions had nothing to do with the Night Elves, yet Saurfang saw it fit to attack the Night Elves because of Genn’s potential future actions based on his past actions that Saurfang did not know Genn was reprimanded for. I do not see why you believe the Alliance would not treat Talanji as suspect for traveling with Zul if this is the kind of reasoning that passes in this setting.

5 Likes
54

How this logic didn’t cause anyone’s head to explode in the writers room at Blizz HQ will forever remain a mystery.

55

Because the Alliance doesn’t have a war addled, PTSD suffering Orc in charge of their diplomacy but Anduin “My best friend is a nine foot Minotaur and my dad’s side piece was a blood elf” Wrynn.

I would think the Alliance, under Anduin, would at least treat Talanji with the respect owed to the sovereign of a foreign power, even if they are not on good terms with that foreign power, regardless of what company she keeps.

Granted the writing is mostly to blame for this oversight, and pretty much all of BFA, but it is still incredibly tone deaf.

5 Likes
56

True, but as I also pointed out, Dalaran didn’t protest Kael’thas being treated this way in Warcraft III, either, when supposedly the Six should have known better, too.

57

During Vol’jin, Son of Sen’jin, “Princess Talanji says: At de time, Zul’s vision of a grand troll empire was very tempting to my father. I must commend your chieftain for seeing de bigger picture.”

Thus Rastakhan was very much aware of what Zul doing and supported it because he saw it as expanding his empire. However he was disdainful of the Mogu, referring to them as Zul’s pets, and was against the plan to resurrect Lei Shen as per the quest " Crumbling Apart."

7 Likes
58

You mean the writers room at Blizz HQ will forever remain a mystery

1 Like
59

He hated him but he was useful. He sent him with his daughter because he knew that Zul could guide her out of any trouble Talanji may have found herself in.

And he was right cause Zul knew exactly how to use a simple torch to burn down half of Stormwind.

3 Likes
60

As far as I know, medieval leaders, if captured, were not treated that much better in real life. I suppose that depending on how liked they were, they might be under house arrest, but I’m pretty sure that wasn’t the default.

Although Stormwind should have a different prison complex for high value prisonners, especially with how unreliable the Stockades have been in the past.

3 Likes