Was Alliance Losing the War?

[Karserd-ragnaros (Karserd)]

But I will say seeing Horde humanized and impact my narrative positively in a noticeable way irks me somehow.
It just feels wrong. It doesn’t fit what I have seen and experienced so far.

Because after several expansions of being the punching bag, narrative direction would go to forgiving the horde again, everything will be solved without retaliation and that would feel like a cheap cop out since most of our loses wouldnt have happened if they would have revolted the second their warchief started to do shady stuff, it looks hypocritic at best, like, thinking that the horde will help saving the souls of night elves from the maw, theyre still dead because of a bad zug zug, as a political entity its their fault theyre on super hell on the first place so i dont even want to see them near those souls, it will happen anyway because blizz.

I can understand that. It does feel like Blizz made the Horde dig themselves down such a deep hole with the Burning that it feels cheap to suddenly pull them out of it with nary a dirtstain… but I don’t think the Horde players, so many of whom didn’t want to go along with that story in the first place, should have it hanging around their individual neck forever.

I think any solution is going to feel bad in some way, but I think almost any solution is better that the current one where everything is swept under the rug for the sake of status quo. I’d prefer something that both the Horde and Alliance player can, if not like, then at least not vehemently hate.

What you ask on your second parragraph is a compromise, sadly there is no solution for this, there is no space for debate and there can be no compromise this time, the well is poisoned, as a political entity theyre irredemable, forgive and forget? we tried and what happened? Teldrassil.

i may be unreasonable but frankly speaking i can no longer be an alliance fan without being this unreasonable, else ill just stop being a fan and stop playing althogether, i am aware that there are some horde fans that are displeased with the overreacing narrative which is why im cautious not to denounce or try to hammer down my personal opinions on them, nothing will change arguing with them anyways. I am ALSO aware so many horde were displeased to help saurfang that they had to add a loyalist option, relishing on the chance to massacre alliance members, which helps to validate my and pheandra’s assumptions.

Blizzard dug this hole and i can only provide my displeasure on the direction they are trying to steer the narrative, knowing they cant please everybody i believe they will continue to do whatever seems more profitable screwing the lore in the process and i will continue to believe this will happen until i see otherwise.

Luckly for me torghast looks neat, ill scrutinize SL before buying it tho, not getting burned next expansion too.

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

I am going to wait and see how “moderate Horde” players respond to it.

No thank you evil. I’ve tried, I’ve seen others try, but any attempt to engage you in an actual discussion that has an end result of anything but “eliminate every single orc, troll, tauren, forsaken, blood elf, etc” gets brushed off and crapped on.

I’ll not engage or attempt to engage you in actual discussion. I have better things to waste my time on. I could level archeology from scratch, for example.

It’s also worth noting that back then, the Alliance and Alliance adjacent institutions had their fair share of jerks too. The world was on the brink of war because of Admiral Proudmoore’s single minded drive to destroy Orgrimmar and the new Horde. There was political corruption among the nobles of Stormwind. The Dwarven clans engaged in political intrigues. The Scarlet Crusade was still a thing.

Y’know what angered me the most about Cataclysm? When they removed all the original quests surrounding Stockades and replaced them with nothing substantial.

It’s a small thing, but that quest chain? Where you can trace it from Westfall questing, into Deadmined, to Redridge, into Stockades, then the keep itself, and so on? It was engaging. It showed corruption, but also showed people fighting it. It had depth. I’ll never forget hiding in the bushes in the keep’s garden thinger, spying on a nobleman working with… A Defias I think? Spying on their conversation for SI:7 was great stuff.

It was replaced by a single guard inside Stockades, sending you to kill Hogger (or did you?). I really feel like this could be a summary of the change in priorities in the development team’s storytelling abilities.

Sure, we could have a storyline that begins in a starter zone, takes you through two dungeons, three zones, across the ocean to another zone, and ultimately hints at connections all the way to a raid boss dragon corrupting the kingdom… But it’s be just easier to put a dude near a dungeon entrance to ask you to kill a joke boss. While we’re at it, let’s replace that first storyline with pop culture jokes about a show people will forget five years later. Subtlety and long-term storytelling is too much when you can just explain things quick and wrap them up in a cinematic.

Meh. I miss moral ambiguity and being able to speculate on things and connections. Not a fan of playing black hats vs white hats.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

No thank you evil. I’ve tried, I’ve seen others try, but any attempt to engage you in an actual discussion that has an end result of anything but “eliminate every single orc, troll, tauren, forsaken, blood elf, etc” gets brushed off and crapped on.

I’ll not engage or attempt to engage you in actual discussion. I have better things to waste my time on. I could level archeology from scratch, for example.

I don’t mean me. But Aviala, in case you haven’t noticed I am trying to stay out of it for once and see what you “moderates” come up with.

But I see that you are not interested in that. You just want to fight more. Otherwise why reply to me rather than Aviala who spent so much time typing out all her ideas?

You are proving my point that Horde players are not interested in a resolution depite their conciliatory words about understanding the other side or whatever.

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

Otherwise why reply to me rather than Aviala who spent so much time typing out all her ideas?

She was talking to you, Phae. I was letting you know why us “moderate Horde” players might not be as interested in biting at your baited hooks with lines like this:

You are proving my point that Horde players are not interested in a resolution depite their conciliatory words about understanding the other side or whatever.

[Skarm-sentinels (Skarm)]

And the Star Wars Sequels make the victories and trials of the heroes of original trilogy look pointless. But that doesn’t change the fact that the original trilogy are great movies, and the sequels are garbage, aside from the visuals.

BFA has great visuals too.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

For the third and last time.

You moderate Horde/Alliance players try and attempt at a compromise and lets see what you moderates come up with when you accuse people like me as trolling and ruining the conversation.

Several times now I have tried to push you towards a more constructive discussion. NOT WITH ME! But with another poster but you refuse to do it.
Its incredible.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

@Pheandra-emerald-dream

@Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord

No thank you evil. I’ve tried, I’ve seen others try, but any attempt to engage you in an actual discussion that has an end result of anything but “eliminate every single orc, troll, tauren, forsaken, blood elf, etc” gets brushed off and crapped on.

I’ll not engage or attempt to engage you in actual discussion. I have better things to waste my time on. I could level archeology from scratch, for example.

I don’t mean me. But Aviala, in case you haven’t noticed I am trying to stay out of it for once and see what you “moderates” come up with.

But I see that you are not interested in that. You just want to fight more. Otherwise why reply to me rather than Aviala who spent so much time typing out all her ideas?

You are proving my point that Horde players are not interested in a resolution depite their conciliatory words about understanding the other side or whatever.

I tried in another thread.. I even asked for input and altered it.

You and other Alliance players dismissed it. Your criticism was that the Horde was presented as anything other than monsters deserving of their destruction. On the other side, I was criticized because it showed Alliance characters doing things that they didn’t consider entirely heroic.

It really is an impossible needle to thread because we’re honestly talking about the disparate desires of dozens of people here on the forums and thousands/millions of the greater audience.

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

Several times now I have tried to push you towards a more constructive discussion.

Oh really?

Horde players are not interested in a resolution depite their conciliatory words about understanding the other side or whatever.

Whatever happened in WC3 to me is an oddity because in the end Daelin was right and Jaina finally realized it by BFA.

But I will say seeing Horde humanized and impact my narrative positively in a noticeable way irks me somehow.

Wrong you can’t.

Why carry Saurfang, you know the mass killer, on his shoulders?

So understanding. And yet not a single statement what you are willing to give up to fix the Alliance narrative.

In the end all these “I so understand the other side” are empty words.

Seems more like trolling.

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

I’ll probably think of some more points later, and this doesn’t solve everything, but I think this would salve over the worst of the current story’s festering wounds.

Blizzard should hire you, seriously.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

Oh really?

Yes really.
Because those replies appear BEFORE Aviala posted her reply. How about you reply to her instead of trying to antagonize me?
You don’t even like talking to me or even respond to my points. Just ignore me and try to have a constructive conversation with Aviala instead.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

You and other Alliance players dismissed it. Your criticism was that the Horde was presented as anything other than monsters deserving of their destruction. On the other side, I was criticized because it showed Alliance characters doing things that they didn’t consider entirely heroic.

It really is an impossible needle to thread because we’re honestly talking about the disparate desires of dozens of people here on the forums and thousands/millions of the greater audience.

Didn’t you suggest to kill Tyrande in that post of yours?

[Skarm-sentinels (Skarm)]

…not sure if that’s sarcasm or not here on The Great Interwebs…

…but honestly, what she described sounds like more than Blizzard will EVER give us.

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

no, it wasn’t sarcasm. good stuff.

i rarely see things that actually benefits both sides and doesn’t necesarily screws the other, if there is a common ground, things like that is what we need.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

You and other Alliance players dismissed it. Your criticism was that the Horde was presented as anything other than monsters deserving of their destruction. On the other side, I was criticized because it showed Alliance characters doing things that they didn’t consider entirely heroic.

It really is an impossible needle to thread because we’re honestly talking about the disparate desires of dozens of people here on the forums and thousands/millions of the greater audience.

Didn’t you suggest to kill Tyrande in that post of yours?

I did not. I suggested that they expel the Night Warrior spirit from her. I did suggest Anduin make a noble sacrifice in order for them to accomplish it though.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

Oh right. I got to read your post again to really comment on it.
But the general feeling I got after reading your suggestion left me feeling more punished than vindicated or satisfied.

[Aviala-wyrmrest-accord (Aviala)]

On the other side, I was criticized because it showed Alliance characters doing things that they didn’t consider entirely heroic.

As a bit of a side note, your thread was the reason I put ‘Make Rogers an utter villain to the Horde’ as one of my main points. My main objection with your earlier scenarios was making Tyrande, Elune, or night elves in general into full villains after everything else that happened to the faction. I think the night elves would need several victories and a period of feeling proud of themselves before any of their characters could be made into villains.

Rogers, however, is perfectly primed to be a villain to the Horde, without the undertones of guilt that using Jaina as a villain to them would cause.

…but honestly, what she described sounds like more than Blizzard will EVER give us.

Yeah, sadly. I think the ambassador NPC part wouldn’t be hugely difficult for them to add, though. And the capitol cities for the expansion after Shadowlands could be something they’d do anyway, so making them night elf/Forsaken cities shouldn’t be too hard, right? sigh I can dream, at least…

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

Because those replies appear BEFORE Aviala posted her reply.

Which changes not a single bit about how you’re not trying to engage anyone in conversation. You’re baiting your troll hook, hoping for something you can troll on.

You don’t even like talking to me or even respond to my points.

I’ve done it. Many times. Each time, you responded with more trolling. More strawmen. More false narratives. Like you’ve done to others in this thread, all while claiming you just “want constructive conversations”.

So. No thank you evil. You don’t get to have constructive conversations if you’ll only respond to them with trolling.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

Yeah, sadly. I think the ambassador NPC part wouldn’t be hugely difficult for them to add, though. And the capitol cities for the expansion after Shadowlands could be something they’d do anyway, so making them night elf/Forsaken cities shouldn’t be too hard, right? sigh I can dream, at least…

Maybe one day they will make a new continent where its actually the old continent but in a different timeline.
But I doubt it.

Blizzard doesn’t have that kind of playerbase/money anymore.
Nothing will be reconstructed.

[Pheandra-emerald-dream]

Which changes not a single bit about how you’re not trying to engage anyone in conversation. You’re baiting your troll hook, hoping for something you can troll on.

I really am not. Is it so hard for your to believe that I just dislike the Horde to that extent?

I’ve done it. Many times. Each time, you responded with more trolling. More strawmen. More false narratives. Like you’ve done to others in this thread, all while claiming you just “want constructive conversations”.

So. No thank you evil. You don’t get to have constructive conversations if you’ll only respond to them with trolling.

You know if you think I am so bad. Why even reply to me? Why are you baiting me? I wasn’t even talking to you when you responded.
Do you want to discuss things or do you just want to exchange petty hate messages? What is even the point? We aren’t even discussing lore, you are just going off on me saying how bad/evil I am.

Is this your attempt to somehow troll the troll? Is that what you think you are accomplishing here?

[Alynsa-wyrmrest-accord]

You know if you think I am so bad. Why even reply to me?

Because you claim to want a thing, then do everything you can to ensure you don’t get that thing. What, suddenly you’ve done a full 180 and want constructive debate? When an hour ago, you were doing everything you could to tear down actual debate?

No. Not working.

Is this your attempt to somehow troll the troll?

No, those attempts usually have me calling you things like hon, baby, girlfriend and sweetie. You know, talk down to you to provoke. I’m honestly not trying to provoke you, nor do I expect that I have. As much as I know you don’t see it, I have a bit more respect for you than that.

I honestly believe you honestly don’t know why people might not be inclined to engage you in meaningful discussions. I think you’re oblivious to your own tone, which isn’t uncommon at all, nor is it a slight. I’m hoping that somehow, you’ll see that what you think is meaningful discussion comes across as trolling.

I’m doubtful, but I’m hopeful.

EDIT: Regardless, I think I’m done with you for this thread. Either you’ll get it or you won’t. I’m done derailing.