4AM cheers then! Looks like it’s beer o’clock.
…well, 6:30pm here, but still somehow the same time.
While we are all locked in our homes its beer time all the time
I think the Alliance was winning until Nazjatar. That kind of evened things out and then at the gates of Orgrimmar before we could actually get a winner Sylvanas was like “y’all suck I got other stuff to do” and bounced.
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Where/when did they say that? So it’s canon?
What tribe got wiped out? And what racial discrimination? Alliance is pretty diverse what with Nelfs, Draenei, and Worgen.
Saying “both sides are equally bad” is nonsense though and completely unsupported by lore. There’s a reason why TWICE you’ve had Horde civil-wars over the direction in which the leadership was taking the Horde.
Saurfang was racked with guilt… they literally had numerous cinematics and cutscenes pointing that out because of just how bad the Horde was.
Has the Alliance done morally questionable things at times? Yes. But claiming they are both equally bad is gold-medal worthy mental gymnastics.
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It was at the last Blizzcon, from Steve Danuser during the WoW Q&A Panel:
- Canonically, you know, the Alliance comes out on top in Stromgarde and in Darkshore.
We gotta do what’s right for the story, and those are just some key, old Alliance locations, and that’s just what feels right for the world.
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Both sides lost. The war was just a con from Sylvanus to get as many people as possible killed. In this case you lose by participating.
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We don’t have any real causality figures so Blizzard can just make up whatever they want for it to suit their story.
Whats it matter anyway? With the way this mmo is designed neither faction can destroy the other without scorching half or more of the player-base depending on whos playing on what.
Alternatively they could show us a reality where that indeed happens one faction destroys the other and takes controlling interest in Azeroth….but I wouldn’t put any money on the story writers and devs being that clever or in-sych.
Pretty much the Story starts with the Alliance taking heavy losses on all fronts, but then the Alliance manage to push the Horde back. Taking Stromgarde and Darkshore, then collected with the Horde Rebels to rally at Orgrimmar’s gates.
However, the cutscenes imply the Alliance was losing while the Horde was still mostly a unified force. As the Horde splintered apart, the Alliance (once again) claims the victory through the Horde’s failure to remain united. The Alliance managed to make a decisive two-part strike on Zul’dazar to destroy the Zandalari navy and take a huge key out of Sylvanas’ plot. But the Alliance suffered major losses.
TO BE HONEST: The Alliance suffered way more losses. Their victory in Battle for Azeroth is as hallow as it comes. Numerical look, the Alliance lost far more military and civilians. Their attempt to fight at Orgrimmar was a hopeful shot in the dark which ended in their favor. Had it failed, the Alliance would’ve lost.
To be frank, this feels like another Pyrrhic victory to add to the list. I don’t know a single Alliance player satisfied with this “victory” that was handed to us by Blizzard, rather than something that felt earned.
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Stonespear tauren tribe was wiped out for living on land that might have had titan artifacts but didnt. Racial discrimination was killing and exile of blood elves by jaina in dalaran cause they were blood elves even though they had no affiliations with the horde. Lastly the alliance has had 3 civil wars so not sure how hordes 2 makes them worse?
None of this is even remotely true. Talk about historical revision.
The Sunreavers used the neutrality of Dalaran to attack the Alliance and steal the Divine Bell in order to aid the Horde war effort. Their leader Aethas Sunreaver knew of the plan yet let it happen. Jaina, as leader of Dalaran, told the Sunreavers to leave once she found out but they refused leaving Jaina with no choice. And it was Sunreavers btw not ALL blood elves that were expelled or imprisoned. Under her command the Silver Covenant purged the Sunreavers.
Also what civil wars did the Alliance have? Who rebelled under kings Varian or Anduin? Or King Terenas for that matter if you want to go back to WC2.
And are you talking about Stonespire tribe that lived at Camp Taurajo? You hordie fan boys bordering on NPCs with that BS.
- Burning Teldrassil
- Nuking Theramore
- Plaguing Southshore
- Plaguing half of Gilneas
- Nuking the druid enclave in Stonetalon
- Poisoning sleeping druids
- Constantly raising people into undeath despite it being viewed as a curse, even by Sylvannas herself
“bUt cAmP tAuRaJo”
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The things you see happen and the balance of war have a poor relationship. The Alliance is unstoppable. You see the fleets both sides get sucked down by Azshara. Sylvanas can’t be beat, even though by then a significant portion of the Horde has deserted and the NE’s have rallied enough to push her Northshore forces to the edge, and over.
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Camp t and stonespear are 2 seperate tribes dude. The sunreavers stood aside and let things happen as the are independent of horde and alliance but because they didnt side or help the alliance thats enough reason for jaina to impose sentencing even when she was told not too? And are you crazy what civil war? The lorderon defection, the unition and the one that divided the races to begin with it doesnt have a name
Nothing more to add than this comment. You took out the words from my mouth mate.
I cannot find a single reference to Stonespear so if you want to send a link to the relevant quests that might help. The closest is StoneSPIRE (not SPEAR) tauren who were based out of Camp Taurajo.
Sunreavers did NOT stand aside. Actual Sunreaver agents aided the Horde. Their leader knew of the involvement of some of his Sunreavers and instead of stopping them he did nothing.
If someone hires an assassin to kill you and I know about it, do nothing, and the assassin succeeds in killing you I am just as culpable in your murder despite not being either the assassin nor the guy who hired him. Same in the case of the Sunreaver leadership - who arguably had an even greater duty to stop it.
Also what ‘lorderon’ defection? And what ‘unition’? At least try to write coherent sentences if you want to be taken seriously.
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Minor point.
The Stonespire were based where Bael Modan sits, the events that led to their displacement happened prior to the start of WoW. Whatever the tribe may or may not have been, it was scattered, and Camp T is not directly related to that conflict, nor even in the same time period.
While noteworthy lore wise, as it is used as an example of Alliance aggression, the settlement itself has never appeared, been significantly detailed, or been relevant beyond its destruction prior to the start of WoW.
I believe the cap-varying reference to Camp T above is less about a direct reference to the Stonespear, and more that Camp T has typically been brought out to demonstrate an attack by the Alliance in moral high ground arguments. The issue being, there are so few of significance from the Alliance, and those committed by “villain-batted” horde are of such greater scale, Camp T doesn’t hold up well on the topic, and is one of the deader horses we have beaten to death.
…honestly Camp T gets used because it is highly visible and was an actual quest hub prior to Cata. Given the full context of both sides, there are much more significant examples of the Alliance being a bad actor, but that has been, and will be again, its very own thread.
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Precisely. Camp Taurajo arguments typically go to the effect of…
Alliance Player: Horde are evil.
Horde Player: But Camp Taraujo!
Alliance Player: The commander ordered his troops to leave room for civilians to escape!
Horde: Alliance bias! Even when they do bad things, Blizzard can’t make the Alliance actually be evil. Only the Horde gets villain-batted.
Then, it usually just devolves from there, but those four points always seem to get brought up.
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I think the main failure of this war story was the lack of wars in iconic areas. We only ever got the two warfronts which were the most logistically baffling events from the Horde perspective.
All of the other thrilling battles that took place across zones we’ve spent the better part of two decades growing to know were on the mission table. The rest was consigned to BFA zones. I liked the Invasion stuff quite a bit but they never felt like anything was won or lost by the end of it. They were just limited time only world quests with PVP. It was really crying out for a Wintergrasp. Or hell even those zones in BC you could take for your side that’d give your faction players a buff. Something.
If this was a high seas adventure expansion where the Horde and Alliance got drawn into a Zandalari Kul Tiran conflict, with an Old God mystery being unraveled as we go, it could’ve worked.
But as a war storyline? We barely interact with territory important to the Horde or Alliance. The only reason we were at Zandalar and Kul Tiras was for their damn boats and that completely stops being relevant the second they finally join the Blue and Red team respectively. It’s an absolute mess and if Darnassus and the Undercity had to go for whatever reason they sure as hell deserved a better thing to be sacrificed over.
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Yep, we wouldve need REAL war on both continents, it could’ve been dungeons it could been raids whatever but they all should’ve been about the faction war, we only got ONE raid about it, instead they burned the faction war, kul tiras, zandalar, azshara and n’zoth all in one exp, just so they could write their narrative next expansion.
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Remember all the speculation at the outset?
Our pre-patch content and intro scenario. Of course we knew early on Zandalar and Kul Tiras would be center stage, but we had so much speculation about where else we would be fighting. After all, if you lead off by destroying two capitals present since inception, well, nothing is off limits, right?
Instead, the center piece of everything, excluding the two war fronts and sometimes-seriously-lore-questionable wartable missions, was the two militaries knocking the stuffing out of each other one the two islands. Which, makes sense in hindsight, but… well, optimism is a helluva drug.
I mean, if you really want to go down the 4d Sylvanas Rabbit Hole, I suppose her orchestrating the conflict to fling the most forces together in the smallest possible area would both kill the most people on both sides, as well as give a more free hand and manageable conflict that allowed her to be very hands off personally as she chased her own agenda.
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Basically the answer was that like Robert E. Lee and the Confederacy the Alliance was winning battles, but at terrible cost to their army, while not striking any decisive blows, meaning they were on the verge of running out of troops and had the war gone on as Anduin said the Alliance wouldn’t have had the forces for further offensive actions.
This is further exacerbated by the fact that Forsaken and the Valkyr threw traditional rules of attrition out the window for the Horde.
Let alone that most major fighting hadn’t been occurring in core Horde lands, meaning those Alliance victories weren’t very impactful.
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