it’s pretty obvious by this point that the horde is the ‘evil’ faction. There’s nothing wrong with that as having 2 polar opposite factions can work well in storytelling, except that the writers apparently don’t want that to be the case, yet are constantly reinforcing it.
The horde have almost ALWAYS been the villains and it has almost always been their fault. The original invasion of Azeroth was by a bunch of Orks that had no problems with selling their souls and killing innocent people. If you read ‘Rise of the Horde’ even the ones against killing innocents still went along with it. They willingly drank the blood of Mannaroth and tried to exterminate the Draenei. Even the other orks witnessing this went along with it. Then in WC3 a bunch of them drank the blood of Mannaroth AGAIN just so they could kill some Night Elves. In MoP they willingly go along with Garrosh’s plan to nuke Theramore and start a war. In BFA they willingly go along with Sylvanas’ plan to nuke Teldrassil (and Lorderon for that matter) and start a war. Then of course there is WoD, where the Orks DON’T drink the blood of Mannaroth and they STILL become violent conquerors just because Garrosh told them to. What excuse do they have now? It seems like they will mindlessly follow any violent leader they have and will only turn on them once said leader betrays them. Oh and the Horde invaded Gilneas too. Cause why not? So that’s Teldrassil, Gilneas, Theramore, Stormwind City, etc. that they have basically or literally destroyed. Literally ALL of which were unprovoked. TBF I have no idea what’s going on with Gilneas because the Alliance portion of that story arc went nowhere.
Yes, the Alliance has done bad things too but that is a complete false equivalency and we all know it. Again, there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. Having a morally bad faction can be interesting. But don’t try and convince yourself that the Horde is not the FAR more ‘evil’ faction. They pretty always have been. Orks apparently will listen to any leader that gives them an excuse to kill things, the Forsaken are straight up evil, Goblins lack any kind of morality and only care about money, etc.
I’m okay with that - mainly, I want some sort of concrete action which shows the Horde aren’t supportive of these actions and are serious about making sure this stuff doesn’t happen again. Could you suggest a different action the Horde could take to that end?
(And I want another splinter villain faction to be night elves sneaking into Horde territory to try to assassinate the remaining soldiers who were a part of the Burning - starting with the most heinous and working through until they’re targeting the most remorseful to show the slide into villainy.)
Again, gonna be honest here. There isn’t any single action or set of actions for this. The closest possible is what happened; abolishing the single leader position in favor of a council.
Instead, the solution is time. Hunting traitors and turning them over just means the Horde’s super-sorry for massacring Alliance people. Again. We promise there won’t be another time, cross our hearts and hope to visit the Shadowlands next year. Just like we promised the last time.
Instead, it needs to be a matter of many small actions building over a longer span of time. Off the cuff, start with some nothing NPCs in whatever joint scenario assault on the Black Gates of Doom and Gloom we’re all corralled into next. That Horde NPC makes some offhand comment about how this is the perfect time to take out the Alliance! For blood and thunder and-
Thrall or Baine or whoever shuts that crap down. Not happening. We’re not pulling that. Then as the scenario goes on, that nothing NPC sees a wounded Alliance NPC.
And he doesn’t take the shot. He stops and stands and defends the Alliance NPC. Even dies in the battle, saving the Alliance NPC.
And that’s it. One tiny step. Because no matter what Blizzard thinks, a questline and cinematic isn’t going to fix things. Dozens, hundreds of small steps will lead us all back. And then, later, you can do some big stuff. But you gotta crawl before you walk.
I think the issue anymore is not that the Horde is the evil faction as much as it is not the Horde some of us signed up to be a part of. I said it before and I’ll say it again, if the Horde of WoW was the Horde of WCII and Beyond the Dark Portal, there would likely be no issue with them being the villains.
The Horde in WoW started as the Horde founded by Thrall, I know he is often said to be the exception, not the rule, but it was under him that the Darkspear and Tauren Joined and the Forsaken were made allies of convenience and it was him that made it so the Bilgewater Goblins joined.
Horde Pandaren joined more cause of the actions of a Tauren, Maghar were the ones that remained after WoD and the epilogue of that. Nightborne were refused by Tyrande, who did note even give them the proverbial “enough rope to hang themselves”.
The issue is more and more the writers of the 1st 3 expansions wanted to continue Thralls Horde yet the ones from Cata on seemed to want to go back to the RTS days. There are reasons why some of us want the ability to break from the factions, because individuals and groups don’t fit the villain theme.
Why are Tauren made to be villains? why are Horde Pandaren villainzed? What reason do Vulpera have to hate the alliance to the point they want them dead? The same can be asked of the Darkspear, Nightborn, and others.
An action that the Alliance could see? While not a concrete action like you want, I would like to build on your ambassadors idea and have them talking about things that the Horde could be doing to help the Alliance, vice versa as well. The idea of giving up prisoners could be one of those conversations, which the Horde would decline.
Things discussions could focus on topics such as there not being enough workers to rebuild Astranaar (The Horde would then offer a small group of peons to assist), Darkshore’s blight is sticking around and is proving difficult to remove (The Horde can offer to check to see if any apothecaries would be willing to advise or oversee it’s removal), or there can be discussion of lumber shortages hitting Orgrimmar again (The Alliance can offer a shipment or two).
Small little things like that I feel would not only show a willingness to cooperate to those looking, but help build the world a bit more.
Really, these ambassadors would serve as convenient NPC mouthpieces to bring in the conflicts discussed in the forums
However, I’m not a fan of these.
Just as many posters here have a kneejerk reaction to ‘another atonement scenario’, I have a kneejerk reaction to anything allowing Horde into Ashenvale after what they’ve done.
The Horde can provide supplies to help rebuilding, but I do not want to let them set even a foot back in that forest. Nope. None. Zilch.
I’ll stick a bunch of frowny-face “Stay Out” signposts, fill the borders with an impenetrable wall of thorns which Malfurion-bury any orc who gets too close, have Sentinels peppering anyone who gets too close with arrows - heck, I’ll personally run into the Barrens, scoop up some very confused Botani, and plant them at the borders if that’s what it takes. No more Horde. Shoo. Out. You already got Azshara.
(It reminds me too much of the sort of people who lick their finger, stick it in a pie, and then say “well, now it’s ruined for everyone else, so you might as well give the whole pie to me, and if you don’t you’re wasteful with food.” I’d rather burn the pie myself than reward and therefore encourage that kind of behavior.)
Maybe Ashenvae lumber and loyalist prisoners can be a case where the ambassadors can be as exasperated with their own side’s flat refusal to budge even an inch as they are with the other faction’s stonewalling?
I do like that. Show they are at least willing to discuss their issues, even if the other side won’t give or accept the help. Ambassadors offering sympathies to one another could be a fun way to play on the stresses of the job and offer some comedy. Even in those scenarios I offered up it could show a genuine effort of the Horde/Alliance to be offering help or assistance and being declined for ‘X’ reason.
Taking the Peons example:
A: The reports of damages in Ashenvale are quite extensive, there are concerns that there may not be enough workers to bebuild Astranaar on schedule.
H: Hmph. I can imagine. As it so happens, the Horde has a large number of peons available. I’m sure I could convince an overseer or two to loan them out if any help is needed.
A: I am afraid we must decline. The last thing the Night Elves want to see right now is Horde in their forests, builders or no.
H: Understandable I suppose…
A: I thought the Horde had plenty of projects of their own. How do you have men available for anything?
H: Ah… Well, as it turns out, giving some meaningless titles does wonders for morale. Our workforce has never been more productive.
You are correct in that Aethas did stumble upon the theft after the fact and gambled on someone ax crazy like Garrosh’s wrath being more severe than the more diplomatic Jaina’s.
Still doesn’t change how Jaina and Lan’dalock were the only confirmed Kirin Tor agents aiding the Alliance.
If I were to try to make sense of this madness, I would say the best way to think of it is is probably the Alliance was never at risk of losing the war throughout BfA, but they were at risk of losing certain paths towards ending it as quickly as possible. The Alliance also lost more forces throughout the War, so there was a bit of a war of attrition element that was never really executed well.
