A none warrior, and none warrior tank is trying to tell a tank what to do from some Skarm person.
Who does this Skarm run with? Does he have a good group behind him to make it work? yes! I looked up the Fury Prot build. You are going to make this poor guy think he’s “epic” for this build.
Trust the tanks that tank as warriors, not the person that saw a video once.
Please look up argument from authority fallacy.
You’re not correct just because you’re a Warrior and I’m not.
PUGs, for what I was describing anyway. I’m sure he raids with his guild.
No, I’m telling him a better spec. That has absolutely nothing to do with how good he is as a player.
He isn’t epic, the spec is.
This is not from something I saw in a video. This is all proven mathematically.
Prot offers HUGE mitigation after 15 points. It does that by having you wear a shield at all times.
With a fury/prot build you are forced to wield two weapons in order to generate good threat. With a deep prot build you become extremely durable because you can wear a shield WHILE building aggro, which means:
2500 extra armor
The ability to block, which if you know how hit tables work is huge
Uncrushability/uncritability while Shield Block holds
The only thing that is proven mathematically is that fury warriors have the potential to generate more threat than protection warriors…
…While they are using two one-handers.
And threat isn’t everything. If it was everything Druids would be the best tank in the game for raiding, not warriors. But they aren’t, because they are spiky and burden the healers. Like dual-wielding tanks do.
They are the superior offtanks for precisely that reason, good snap aggro, a taunt and enormous threat.
You can tank in full fury pve build but your group will have to be a bit smarter.
Personally I liked the fury / prot build because you can dps and tank easily.
But as fresh 60 just go protection/ impale . Its really nice and shield slam feels good .
Here is some more math. Shield slam deals 350 damage and has 250 bonus threat at rank 4 before stance modifiers, so it would be roughly 600 threat assuming your block value scaling and mob armor cancel out. Bloodthirst deals 45% of your AP as damage, so it would take 600/0.45 ~= 1330 AP just to break even. It also costs 10 more rage, so you would need 2k AP to make it as rage efficient as Shield Slam. You also need around 20% crit to break even with +10% weapon damage. 20% crit and 1k AP are what is needed to do EQUAL threat dual wielding to a Prot Warrior that is just hit capped.
The only reason the “best tanks” are all fury/prot is because they are speedrunning content. If you are progressing on a boss you need at least one deep prot warrior, preferably two.
Those tanks have the gear, consumes and world buffs guaranteed throughout the whole run needed to make fury prot excel. Without those, fury prot is inferior to deep prot.
2H 31 Arms + defiance is probably best AE threat tank for 5 mans . But vs single target shield slam is better overall
Shield slam is worse than deep fury if you’re going for threat only, but then you should play a druid.
EDIT: My point is taking much less damage is very valuable during progression. If you’re speedrunning content… Whatever. Do what you want. Bring a deep prot. Bring all furies. Tank with a full dps warrior. Bring 5 druids and 0 warriors.
EDIT 2: The point of the deep prot tree is generating much more threat… WHILE YOU ARE WEARING A SHIELD. Go tank with a shield and a deep fury build and see how much threat you generate. Ohshiftson’s point is that tanking with a shield is useless 95% of the time if you the content you are doing is in speedrun status to your guild, and I agree with that. For everything else, bring an actual tank.
I watch a lot of Skarms video’s and am a huge fan however in his fury prot build video he straight up says not to go fury prot in dungeons right away. He actually says you should have a min of 15% crit… Looked up the exact time he says it at 3mins 6 secs… I really grow tired of all these fan boys screaming go fury prot. Below is his video.
You can’t hold threat very well when pulling packs of mobs and dps is just attacking anything they want unless you are arms + defiance.
You aren’t going to land 5 shield slams on 5 mobs in the 10 seconds it takes for mage etc to AE everything .
If given time you can sunder everything but remember doing that is threat not generated on the skull which dps is focused on and they will pull agro.
Also the dps and healer have threat reduction skills and talents . But how many actually use them?
The guy is a beginner warrior and I bet hes tanking pugs which is a mixed bag.
One run you might get healer in green gear , next run you get healer with benediction staff.
Same with dps . His best option is to go full protection shield slam and do the best he can . Protect the healer who will be healing dumb dps .
And ffs mark targets , I hate being dps and not having a target to focus on right away.
Yup! I’ve seen what this other person was talking about and you are 100% right
Why did you factor in the primary DPS-increasing Prot talent but failed to factor in a huge DPS-increasing Fury talent in Enrage?
Im sure a new 60 warrior doesn’t have the gear to do fury prot . His best option will always be shield slam build till he gets some pre-bis items.
Warrior is just my alt that I made to help out guild mates when needed and also learning as I go. I haven’t tried Fury/Prot yet, but I’ve healed quite a bit of each spec. I’m just throwing out some of my experience gearing up in dungeons so take this with a grain of salt.
As I leveled I was an old off tank Arms/Prot spec with 5 in Cruelty. Everything was fine, but put a Weapon Chain on my weapon. As deep prot I now have Shield Slam which can be used while disarmed and can Intercept when a boss knocks back. Stance dancing is huge to me and will really miss it once I convert over to more agility later on.
I have no plans on tanking in a raid unless it’s needed so I’m just enjoying deep prot. Not everyone is a pro and not every healer is top notch. So having outs and taking less damage so the DPS can do their jobs helps a lot. I’m not topping the meters in my groups, but I rarely have wipes and always pay attention to my healers mana. Once they are drinking and over 60% I know I’m fine with the next pack. Most tanks don’t understand is it takes a bit to get out of combat. Let alone if they popped Bloodrage late and keeps you in combat even longer.
During or after the dungeon the healer usually says it’s nice to see a tank actually using a shield. When they join my group in the future I have yet to have a healer leave and usually remember me. From my experience Fury/Prot or 2h tanking take a lot of spike damage. It’s fine for me, but only if the Tank lets me drink after a few pulls. Non stop pulling is a great way for them to get a repair bill. I used to get mad at myself for letting the tank die, but I’m getting used to it now though.
This is my build. Nothing special. I went for 2 point into Charge which isn’t really needed now that I’ve tanked all the dungeons and a lot of the time you are body pulling or from range. Gear is nothing special also. I get my hit from Unforgiven’s Mask, Mail gloves from LBRS quest, Mara ring, Horde quest trinket, and bow from DM E. I ran Scholo a bunch for the defense set there and mix and match with other dungeon drops.
(Sorry it has been since the start of Classic from when I used to chat and lost my ability to post links. 13/5/33. 2 points into charge is not needed. 5 points into armor 0 into Defense. 3 points Revenge. 3 points Sunder. 1 point Taunt.)
I did a lot of testing leveling up and in later dungeons. It seems Thunderclap is fun, but kinda worthless. Haven’t seen Battle Shout do good threat and DPS warrior’s usually have improved. Demo shout is nice on new adds, but nothing special (or splitting ghost in Scholo), but costs rage that you could be just tab sundering. It seems to just tab Sunder and Revenge till you’ve hit the entire group. Then proceed with your marked skull and keeping an eye on elites. Always moving to the next target early and tab sundering.
One thing I learned was Berserker Rage allows you to also gain rage on taking damage. Never read that before just mainly used it for fears in PVP. So it’s good for a quick switch when you know you will be rage starved on certain pulls or add a Whirlwind. You will never tank every add 100% on big pulls, but Engineering bombs sure do help.
Hope this helped some. As I said I’m still learning so a lot of this is still fresh in my mind. Only tanking item left that I want are the shoulders from Unforgiven in Strat at the moment. Tanking all the dungeons also left me with some nice DPS gear in the bank.
Links didn’t work for me but I went deep protection build when I first started tanking .
I kinda miss shield slam because the utility is great . Also having faster taunt refresh .
Now I have alot of dps gear and tank gear I went full fury/arms for dps raiding. But I can tank as fury and even use shield to give the healer a break. However it is not enjoyable to tank in this spec but its possible as long as dps aren’t silly.
Sunder seems to be what I spam the most . So imp sunder is great and get imp taunt .
Shield slam really good and almost feels like an extra taunt sometimes.
Get threat plates addon .
Mark targets fast using hotkeys .
Don’t stress.
The uptime on a raid boss is low (15 to 20% uptime), so it would be a 3 to 4% dps increase.
Even when using a shield, actually, depending on how much damage you’re taking.
But yes, the point of Fury/Prot is to dual-wield. Good job.
No, of course not, but you very, very quickly reach a point where mitigation is unnecessary, and that point in dungeons is basically when you’re level 60 with quest greens.
Well, actually DPS is the most important part of tanking right now, and guess what build has the highest DPS for tanking?
Yeah, it’s Fury/Prot.
Druids are actually far less spiky and have much less DTPS than Warriors, currently, due to our excess of Armor.
We simply mitigate far more damage than Warriors possibly can. In fact, due to our avoidance being lower, our damage taken is actually far more consistent, too, whereas a Warrior is more reliant on avoidance to reduce their damage taken.
If they have good snap aggro and enormous threat, that would make them superior main tanks. Off-tanks do not need enormous threat, as they are holding secondary targets.
Fury Warriors (not to be confused with Fury/Prot) using whatever tank gear they have are more than sufficient for this purpose.
Hahaha.
You think the threat comes from Bloodthirst? The threat comes from Heroic Strike.
Nope. Even for progress, Fury/Prot is better.
Hell, the world first Classic MC was cleared with a Fury/Prot Warrior. That was well before it was a “speedrun.” It doesn’t get any more “progression” than that.
None of that is at all necessary to make Fury/Prot useful. Fury/Prot is a superior build regardless of gear. I’m not sure why you people don’t understand that.
It’s probably
Your point is pretty weak, honestly. What do you get out of going Deep Prot that you don’t get as Fury/Prot?
Fury/Prot:
5/5 Shield Specialization
5/5 Toughness
Last Stand
1/3 Improved Shield Block
Deep Prot:
5/5 Shield Specialization
5/5 Toughness
Last Stand
1/3 Improved Shield Block
At best you could get…
5/5 Deflection
5/5 Anticipation
2/2 Improved Shield Wall
Realistically, you don’t get Deflection because Improved Heroic Strike is better. You could drop points out of that and/or Cruelty to get it, but then your threat suffers, and threat is far more important than some parry.
10 Defense is a negligible amount of avoidance, often ignored in favor of better talents in the tree.
6 more seconds on Shield Wall is so niche it’s hardly worth considering. If 6 seconds on Shield Wall every half hour is making a big difference in your progression, your guild has issues.
Most of your ability to tank comes from a few key talents that Fury/Prot picks up. Extra Shield Block charge, Last Stand, multiplier to armor, and a higher threat multiplier in Defensive Stance.
Beyond that, it’s mostly from gear, which isn’t going to suddenly change just because you’re a different spec. You can use a shield for Fury/Prot, and it is still a better spec than Deep Prot for all the same reasons.
Fury/Prot is an actual tank.
Funny, but this is based on private server data, well before Classic even came out.
He was playing Fury/Prot on his stream to obtain his dungeon gear:
Also, 15% crit is obtainable with quest rewards:
And that’s just utter garbage quest gear assuming you haven’t even done easier dungeons. Imagine if you actually did lower level, pre-60 dungeons along the way.